943. - Hrishikesh Hirway

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it 3 times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

Hey guys, Jason here. Really quick, Chris's recording got a little messed up, so we used his Zoom recording for the intro, but for the interview portion after the commercial break, he sounds back to normal. If you hate it, just fast forward about 15 minutes, but it still sounds pretty good. Thanks for listening.

How long gone? Good to hear from you, bitch. It's Chris Black. I'm back in New York. The sun is shining, uh, it's a little chilly, but we're going to power through. TJ, you're still holding it down, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm over here at the Nine Orchard, room 6E. Beautiful little corner view of, of Dimes Square. I got to see a lot of stuff go down on the block over the last few days. There was a You know, some skaters who can't skate, couple Chinese funerals, some yelling, all kinds of stuff.

That, that honestly sums it up perfectly. Those are the, those are the 3 things I experience most. Well, from my purview, I also have basketball and, and pull-up bars, but it's not that much. Okay. It's not that much different than what—

would you rather have basketball pull-up bars? I've got the sound of ping pong kind of deeper into the forest. It's not exactly right on the corner. But I get a lot of stand-up comedians who film talk shows about dating and stuff on the street.

Oh, sure, sure. What's your biggest ick? Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. There's a lot going on, bro. I'm happy to be back in New York. I felt like, you know, we got this, we got this roast, we got Ice— I mean, Iceman in just a few days now. I can't contain my excitement.

Fire and ice with the roast and the man, huh, Chris?

I— these, these roasts. I just like that the roasts are now about how much these comedians hate each other and have nothing to do with the actual roast and the point of the whole gathering.

No, the point of a roast and a gathering is to show that you hate somebody but also respect them enough to prepare, you know, I think that may be minutes worth of material.

I think that may be what it used to be.

That's what it used to be.

Now it's Chelsea Handler and Shane Gillis going toe to toe over who can be the meanest, which is fine for us as the winners as the viewers.

Yeah. A queen, a queen like you loves to see a mean off no matter who's doing it.

Exa—

but I wonder how much, you know, cuz they all claim they're getting paid, which I'm sure is true. And I also know that, that's, that it's not a, a flat fee that, that matches per person. So I'm wondering who, who, you know, is Katt Williams getting the most? Cuz he's a holdout. Are they having to pay The Rock the most? Cuz he's the most, you know, who knows?

Does The Rock do it for free cuz he's the homie? Because Kevin really needs it. You know, if he doesn't come out, it's kind of, you You know, it's like they're roasting the guy from— the other guy from Salem, and you know, Jack don't come out.

It's kind of like, yeah, we got to talk about this.

All right, so Salem, the roast of the bass player from The Strokes, ladies and gentlemen.

Salem Supreme collab got announced today, which is, is great. And the— if again, I, I'm on— this is one man's, um, sort of understanding of the artwork, but, but tell me if you agree, it looks like a cartoon painkiller. Like a, like a sort of like a sports mascot, but it's a, it's a cartoon Percocet. And then what is, what is the Percocet holding?

So it's, it's in the style of like a minor league baseball team logo, you know, Savannah Bananas ass looking logo. It's, it's giving Mud Sharks, you know, just a little bit.

Yeah.

You know, it's, it's kind of cute. It's kind of kitschy, but it's, it's a seriously hand-drawn cartoon. I'm sure they sourced a professional who does this for a living and said, yeah, make the guy instead of it being a mud shark or a banana, turn them into a Perc 30 or whatever it may be, a round generic pill that's meant to sedate and etc. And then instead of swinging a baseball bat, I believe he's using a stolen catalytic converter as the hitting tool.

I have to say, this is all great, but when I saw, because I didn't scroll through the full collection, which is like, you know, like a jacket, a couple t-shirts, the hoodie, of course. And they did the, um, they did the socks that you get at the hospital. All my fellow, uh, people who have OD'd will know about these socks. I mean, to be fair, if you've gone to the hospital for it, they have the grip on the bottom. They could be confused for Pilates socks if you live in the West Village. But if you've really gotten out of the mud before, you know, when it comes to Salem, they're always referencing drugs. And I have to say, it's one of the greatest things I've ever seen. Making, making hospital socks with a, with your Percocet collection. Is, is top level stuff. Top level stuff.

Yeah. I mean, Supreme never really lets us down with their Cruise collections and 2026, you know, it continues on. I think that the amount of people who are gonna wear that and be able to pull it off well, it's, it's low. And I think that's what is cool about Supreme.

I would say, I would say almost zero.

It's almost zero. Unfortunately, all of these items will be bought by, with, with bar mitzvah money instead of, you know, people who, who do drugs and play baseball and steal catalytic converters and get face tats and shoot people and, you know, have sex with people.

Look, I think there's going to be one person who has stolen a catalytic converter before that will also buy this. I think there might be one, only one, only one, but one's better than zero.

No, I know a lot of, I know a lot of guys who would wear this who have worked at Supreme, who have maybe stolen a catalytic converter. Those people are all on Flow Team, so they're going to get it for free.

And they're going to get it for free.

If you get it on Flow Team, you can pull it off. And otherwise, no, Tim, don't even think about it.

Tim, do not even think about pulling up. You ain't never touched a perk, Tim. Do not think about it.

You got to stick to the little skeet Margiela hoodie. But I think the overdose socks really plays into that prime, you know, Salem It Girl demographic of like, yeah, I overdosed again. What are you going to do about it? Call the cops. I'll fucking suck their dick too. Like the whole You know, we're getting dirty. We're— I'm getting kidnapped. I'm getting dropped off in the woods. And what is the sock I need for that?

There's only one sock and this is it. God bless.

And I would wear these. And also the color, it's kind of like—

that's what they give you. That's literally the color they give you.

Like that color. It's like the candy striper '50s, you know, Easter egg teal. They can't just give you black or white.

They can't just give you black or white. Normal stuff.

Not like the good people over at Motivate Pilates. They have a great sock. Selection of colors with their socks. But yeah, this one, you know, it's a, it's a particularly terrible color in the best way possible. If they make those socks in a, you know, a little double XL men's for somebody with a larger body size, you know, please bless me. I would hate to have to hire somebody off of Temu or Fiverr to kind of draft up the pattern on this one and get some, get some, a little small run made for me in the, in the bigger dogs. Yeah, big guys like to overdose too. Okay.

Big guys love to overdose. Talk to Lamar Odom. Talk to Lamar Odom.

Oh, Lammy.

Um, um, not Lam Lam. Uh, also though, in, in TJ news, one for, one for me, one for you. It seems that, uh, R&B superstar Chris Brown, AKA Team Breezy, has been given a, um, 1.3 from our friends over at Pitchfork with a, with a one or two sentence review, and I just wanted to know, as a representative for the Team Breezy community with tickets to the Usher-Chris Brown co-headline, do you have anything to say for the community? Can you represent sort of— I know they didn't give you a statement to read. You didn't prepare anything, but if you just— a few words on the subject would be great. If you don't—

Sure.

Okay.

Okay. Well, I'm assuming— okay, this review, the Chris Brown 1.3, was written by a guy named Alphonse Pierre, and I think he has seen 1.3 pussies in his entire life.

Got him.

Oh, I would, you know, I kind of skimmed through the album Brown. Well, there's 26.

There's too many. There's too many songs that is— that's— I only know that from listening to Joe Budden because they're like, oh, hell yeah, you give us 27-pack. I'm like, I don't think I want that.

Hit me with the 27-piece. It's a 7-disc set. I mean, I guess it's kind of like, what do you want? Which way, Western man, do you want the 26-minute Addison Rae full length or do you want, yeah, you know, 2 hours and 47 minutes of Bryson Tiller featuring Janelle Monáe and stuff like that. But I would say, you know, to Alphonse Pierre, which that name is just a little too good.

It sounds like it sounds like it could be a stage name. I'm sure it's not. I haven't clicked on his byline. I'm sure he's written plenty.

This was written by Dave from Chromio.

Is that what you're saying? Hold on. Whose pen name is this?

Hold on. Which one of y'all is writing this? But it's also kind of weird because taking the, you know, whoever Alphonse Pierre actually is in real life, I think it's smart to take people off the scent, giving yourself an extremely French-sounding name because that's one of the only countries, you know, in NATO that has no problem with Chris Brown's actions. You know what I mean?

That's it. It's sort of—

Well, he could be Québécois. Not to bring Dave back into it, but he could be.

Mm-hmm.

The plot thickens like a fucking gravy, doesn't it, Chris?

The plot thickens. Yeah, the plot thickens. Uh, I don't know.

Beurre blanc.

Okay. Well, I would say obviously a Chris Brown album in 2026 that has, you know, 28 tracks on it. I'm sure there's a couple, you know, doggy style skits in between some of the larger movements, you know, not unlike a Rosalía album, but, you know, there's going to be some winners. There's going to be some singles. And I would say Alphonse Pierre, refer to, I think it's track 3. It's called Honey Pack.

Yeah. Honey Pack Focus is a popular erectile dysfunction remedy.

It's kind of like gas station Viagra type thing, right? You go to the store, you get some papers, you get some blunt wraps, you get some alcohol and you get—

let me get some raws. Let me get a raw pack.

Yeah. Yeah. Pick up a nice fella cootie set of rolling papers. Ian snuck that in my little bag. I see you, nice little side promo. He knew I'd give him a shout out. Peabody Award-winning documentary, I believe, right?

Pulitzer, bro.

Pulitzer. Oh, not the lowercase P, the uppercase P.

Yeah, but not skateboard. Not skateboard.

The other one. Okay, so Honey Pack, I skimmed the lyrics. It kind of focuses on the intersection of Hennessy and paying for sex. And what else does does somebody want in a modern R&B?

Real talk.

Real talk.

I mean, I'm not going to listen to Chris Brown and not even because he's a bad guy, just because I'm not super into R&B. But I like that Pitchfork— I like when Pitchfork does this occasionally to someone that it won't affect at all. You know what I mean? It's sort of like Chris Brown fans don't know what Pitchfork is and Pitchfork fans hate Chris Brown. So it's kind of a victimless crime.

It's like the Onion doing a JD Vance meme.

Yeah, it's kind of like, who cares, dude? It all washes out in the end. Like when Pitchfork, you know, and they did the famous Jet thing. That's funny because Jet was the— you know, it's fine. It's as long as you're not attacking working-class rock bands that are getting attacked for their blue dots, I think we can— I think we can let this go as a fair play.

I think I would say a Tune Yards 4-7 is worse than a Chris Brown 1-3. It affects their bottom line more so, right?

Don't even— don't get me started on Tune Yards, bro. We don't have enough time. We don't have time for that.

I don't—

I can't even begin to get into that. I was at Elmira last night and they played yuck.

Oh, man. Yeah.

Love Yuck. I forgot about it. Listen to it all day today. Classic album. If you don't know Yuck, go look them up now.

That guy's a big Oscar Award winner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Legendary sick man, too. He's dating Taylor Russell, Harry's ex, man.

Get you a bald motherfucker. You a Jeff Ross looking motherfucker that take your bitch. Powerful, powerful action.

Jeff Ross took your mix, bitch. That's crazy, bro. That's crazy. All right, we do have a guest.

We have a guest. Don't worry, we're going to talk only about the, uh, the roast of Kevin Hart with our guest today. Fret not, listeners.

Yeah, don't worry. Uh, Rishi Kashirwe is joining us. You know him, uh, as the host and creator of, um, the very popular podcast that— is it on— where do we get that? Where do we get Song Exploder?

Was it PRX? I think it was there. They might be part of that little kind of collective of like NPR-ish leaning people.

You've listened to— I mean, we've all listened to Song Exploder. I love the Song Exploder TV show. That REM and the Killers. That's it. I mean, Dua Lipa and Dua Lipa, who, who— the best part about that show is it proved Dua Lipa has never written a song, but that's another issue. Um, and, uh, he's also the 1 AM Radio, a band that he is— a project he's been doing forever that I swear I've seen play in, um, multiple DIY venues in my, uh, short life.

Dangerbird Records alum, I believe.

Oh shit, wow, Dangerbird Records.

God, he's got this— he's got the Silver Sun connection.

Yeah, one of a beloved How Long Gone band, Silverstone Pickups. Um, LA's finest, KCRW's finest. Um, all right, well, let's, uh, let's give them a jingle and get into it. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions. But how often— because we do this podcast 3 times a week, and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

3 times a week. And I, I have a feeling, just based on the platform and these talking points, that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, uh, stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcast. You can watch on YouTube. It's 3 times a week. And, and who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're deep into May, which is Mental Health Awareness Month. And this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. But the truth is no one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris. And sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them, because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself. And that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over 6 million people globally are using it. And, you know, have some breakthroughs. Go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, damn, I really am him. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody With you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/howlong. That is betterhelp.com/howlong.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy and I was honestly surprised to get the invitation. So thrilled. Every podcast needs to have its lowest performing episode.

That's actually factually, that is true.

Batter up, Double H. Batter up. No, but I mean like, because you, I mean, your name is definitely recognized in the halls of podcast history because, you know, you and I have both been potting for a long time, beasting in the underground, you know, trying to use it as— I was realizing we have a lot of similarities, having a musical career. You a little more, uh, folky singer-songwriter with an electric touch, me more, um, EDM and hip-hop style DJing. But we both use the podcast you know, medium as a way to maybe boost our profile and career as, you know, a musician in hopes that that would, you know, help you become a famous musician or a DJ. And then the side project ends up being a bit of an attention stealer.

Well, I have to say, I definitely wasn't thinking about my own profile when I started the podcast.

Oh really?

I was really, I was very consciously trying to be like—

Thank God. You shouldn't talk to Dax Shepard then. That's good for you. No, you're saying you're doing it from a place of brightness, a place of peace. Like, I just want to do this, so let's do it.

Well, it wasn't peace exactly, because I basically had intense writer's block and wasn't doing music at all, and I needed something to sort of fill the void and I went back to my brain for the first time in my adult life to see what other ideas I might have. And the podcast was something that I'd kind of been thinking about in bits and pieces for years. And so then I started it, but I was really feeling like, I was like, I don't want it to feel like maybe I'm trying to do exactly what you said, Jason. You know, like I wasn't trying to say, hey, hey, this is a thing that's about my music in any kind of way. So, In the, in the very first pilot version of it, I literally don't speak.

Okay, go ahead.

I, the plan for it was I was gonna have the guests do all the intros and outros.

Oh, so you're just gonna stitch it together. Basically.

You were, you were the Suge Knight of NPR. You don't want your podcast host all in the intro, all in the outro. You, you, so you let your guests, or maybe you force your guests to do all of your work for you.

Yeah. That was—

in exchange for no money.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and podcasting, no profile. Yeah. No exposure, no money.

It might have more negative than positive effects, you know, at the end. Okay. Well that, yeah, I guess it makes— so in no way were you like, okay, if this podcast thing ends up taking off, then, you know, maybe, maybe we'll start getting some more gigs, start getting some more features, start getting some bigger studios, et cetera.

No, I was really thinking like, This is my day job. I don't necessarily need to tell anybody about my day job as it pertains to my music life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also think it was a long time ago, you know what I mean? In a good way. And in a way where it's like I could see that line of thinking, whatever, 10 years ago or more. I mean, it was before podcasting was what it is today too, you know?

Yeah. I mean, the halls of podcast history that you mentioned, Jason, they aren't even finished being built yet.

That's right.

The shows are older than the halls of history.

That's right. 'Cause the how long gone wing is unfortunately still under construction. And it's, it's, okay.

Well, Well, I mean, well, you and I, like, I had a podcast a long time ago called Tall Tales and Chris would come on as a guest every once in a while. Actually, I just played a wedding over the weekend and a couple people there were like, yo, we've been listening since Tall Tales. So, and that was, you know, 15 years ago. Yeah. And it was back when you were starting as well. What, like 2012-ish, something like that?

Uh, 2014, the first episode came out.

Okay.

Yeah.

Back before we were all, uh, wife guys.

Back before. Yeah. When we were just single podcasters on the prowl for poontang.

Famously, famously. I mean, honestly, that narrative has changed too, man. We got, look, we got Jake Shane out here who knows what he's doing. You know what I mean?

Jake Shane. So our names are in the foundation or maybe the subflooring of the halls of podcast history.

Maybe that's a fair one.

I mean, it's not, it's still not being built, but you know, that, that 1.0 version of podcasting, it really was like a beautiful Wild West where It was like when we were talking to our friend Al earlier today, like when Twitter first came out and had that Wild West feel to it of like, oh, I'm just going to ask this celebrity a question and they don't realize that they can just ignore it. Like for whatever reason, for whatever reason, you know, Michelle Pfeiffer has to clap back to what you said about her, you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. And podcasting felt the same way. You're just like talking into the void and maybe someone listens to it, maybe doesn't. And now in 2026, we have AI tools that can pull out every time you say a racial slur and make an infographic about it to post on, you know, The Hollywood Reporter or whatever it is.

It's a different vibe.

It's a different vibe.

There was a podcast that popped up last year that was generated by AI called Song Explorer.

Yeah, that's, that's cool. All right. So what did it, what did it sound like? Let me guess. Did it maybe sound like Song Exploder or was it, was it a different idea?

It was like —a 5-minute episode about a Taylor Swift song. And it was, you know, some AI voice talking about— it was more like a— like in the Switched On Pop kind of vein, you know, like let's discuss the— yeah, the song from some relative distance. And, you know, it was more like music, music criticism, just condensing everything that had been written about that song into the worst possible.

How long did this— how long did this AI podcast— I mean, I know that the running time was 5 minutes. How long did the series last or did it They still put out 78 episodes per day.

Don't worry. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. As far as I know, they're still, they're still, yeah, putting out many, many episodes. They're cranking. It was a daily podcast.

Yeah. I mean, with AI, it can be whatever you want. It can be every minute, every day, you know, whatever you want. It handles it all. Do you think they're going to create some type of like bot restricted, like uploading things, like how we have to prove that we're a human to, you know, download a file or whatever. We have to show all the stop signs or crosswalks. Is there something where we can human— because like, what is it, like 40% of podcasts being uploaded now are completely automated AI? I don't remember what the percentage was, but it was— oh wow, I didn't know that.

It was a lot.

Like, like, like millions of podcast episodes are uploaded fully, you know, autonomously through AI.

I think it's worse with music because, yeah, you know, mostly I think people are coming to podcasts for the people, not so much the topic, right? You know, they want to hang with you and whatever you want to talk about. But for some reason, you have something like 44,000 new AI-generated songs are uploaded to DSPs every single day.

I bet some of them slap. That's the fucked up part. I bet some of them are kind of good, low-key, if you Yeah, if you— I don't know if— I mean, I like to think I'm very discerning, but obviously we have Drake's Iceman coming out Friday. There's been a lot of quote unquote leaks that are AI generated, and I will listen to leak. I'll be like, hey man, if I just listen to this briskly walking down the street, sounds pretty good to me. People like, the cadence is wrong. He would never use that metaphor. This, this, this. And I'm like, yeah, sure. But I'm saying like, overall, even to someone who knows better, it's pretty good. Yeah.

Okay. Well, Chris, maybe you can use your Claude bot to sign some of these emerging AI talents autonomously. Yeah. And it's just printing money. So then are these, or do we have people who are using AI to then listen to these songs? So then we can generate streams or listen to, because if I'm, if I'm releasing 100 AI episodes of my fake podcast about Taylor Swift or whatever I think is gonna get the most clicks, My 5-minute fake podcast is gonna down, you know, get what, 11 listens? Like it's, it's not really gonna generate revenue unless I create, you know, a, a bot farm of listeners who are then gonna listen to it. And then, you know, my Squarespace check's gonna come in. It's gonna be small, but I'm gonna get, you know, I'm gonna get 78,000 $4 checks every month from Squarespace. Oh, it gets real Black Mirror real fast.

Um, because there's like a, an actual person from one of these companies talking about how she only needs to get something like 7 listeners per episode in order to, to make back the cost of, you know, whatever it costs to make this thing. So she— her strategy is just to absolutely blast the universe with as many things as possible and hope, like, you know, if one of them gets like 100 listens— that's a windfall! Yeah, yeah, sure, she's rolling in it.

Gotta open a new checking account.

Yeah, so it's kind of like penny stocks with Penny Tracks, I guess?

Yeah, you just cast a wide net. Penny Tracks is a good name for our AI label. We'll save that. That's not bad. Where do you live? Do you live in LA or New York?

I'm in LA.

Oh, you are? Okay, okay. I should have been able to tell. I know you're doing well, but the space we're seeing feels a little big.

No, no, no, no.

Not happening in New York.

Where are you from originally?

Massachusetts.

Okay. Because I was saying to Jason, I feel like I've seen The 1 AM Radio play in some, I would say, speaking of subfloor, some DIY venues maybe that could feel like— did you play in Atlanta a lot, didn't you?

Not a ton, but I was actually wondering if there was any chance you were at this house show that I played with Portrait.

Oh, hell yeah. Definitely was. Definitely was. Portrait. Portrait. Actually, I just— a guy from Atlanta did like an NTS show. Yeah. Atlanta, like recently. And it really— Portrait was— I think that— I mean, we've talked about this a lot on the show, but that weird, like, you know, Sasha Jerome's dream orchid world having this huge comeback is like Sasha selling like 1,000 tickets. Yeah. Is so crazy to me. But yes, Portrait was Atlanta's best. Yes. You know, but I do— I probably have that flyer somewhere, honestly. Yeah. Okay.

Portrait is Atlanta's best. What for? Like screamo?

Like that kind of screamo sort of like—

paint a portrait of what type of music we're talking about. Some DIY screamo. Yeah.

I mean, right. How would you describe it?

Like, yeah. And I would say it's sort of like these bands were kind of like the literati of the screamo.

Yes, that's true.

It was a little— it was a little like— You were scaring the hoes for a minute, but I think we're coming back now, guys.

Quote unquote smarter, you know what I mean? I would say like there was a certain—

the thinking man's Blood Brothers.

It would have a little bit of a Spock rock haircut, white belt energy around the, the outer ring. But when you got in, yeah, they were all skinny. It was like a very— it was very like they would play with the more straight ahead, no pun intended, hardcore bands like Revelation Records, Victory Records bands. Equal Vision, but it was like a little more like, we like the makeup, you know?

Yeah, okay, I'm with that. And Jerome's Dream was supposed to play that show, um, because we were on tour together, and that was, you know, another distinguishing thing about them. Like, they took the emo, the emotional part of emo very seriously, bringing, you know, a solo sad boy singer-songwriter like me with them as their opener.

Yeah, that, that's because they're pretty, they're pretty lit, like live. It's like a show. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you're saying you would be opening these shows, you're up there solo, dolo on a chair. Standing. Standing.

So, okay. Okay. All right. I respect that. This has a real get you, get you a fan who could do both kind of, because I love stuff like that because when you have a lineup of like a crazy intense screaming band, you know, thrashing their bodies all over the stage and, you know, kicking a hole in the drum kit. And then we got your Pedro the Lion ass up there doing your little acoustic guitar. And if you like, I'm in a room in North Carolina with 78 people who all love both of these acts. These are my people. If I'm like, if I fit in this room, then I'm surrounded by my future wife or husband or best friend or whatever it is, you know? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. My set would be when everybody would sit down and all the kids would sort of huddle together in their hoodies and hold hands. Wow. Really?

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Damn.

Like there's a school shooter? No, no, no. Like the couples would. Sorry, not everybody holding hands all together. Yeah. Yeah.

It wasn't a cuddle. It wasn't a séance. No, no, no. I just think that because we've said stuff like this before, it's like an interesting— because there just wasn't like, in theory, you shouldn't— you should have been playing somewhere else with someone else, you know what I mean? But there wasn't somewhere else to play. That was like sort of where if you were in any sort of underground music, no matter what the actual genre was, you kind of got grouped in together and would play together because that's all there was. Yeah.

Yeah. There was no venue for like fugazified singer-songwriters. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's a small—

yeah, but I know what you mean. But it's like when people— yeah, I don't know, people are like, oh, that's so weird. I'm like, it really wasn't weird. It was like that. That's the— I'm sure Elliott Smith was playing hardcore shows too. Like everybody, that's what everybody did. It was the whole— it was—

I remember thinking back now, you would see those crazy weird lineups and everyone really was respectful. And it was at a— the peak disrespect was happening in the rest of the world, but we didn't think it was that weird for Pedro the Lion to open for Killswitch Engage, you know? It's just like, yeah, this is just what we do, man.

There's a singer-songwriter opening for Botch in every city in America. It's like, yeah, shit, whatever, bro, I'll buy your record too, man. This is sick. Absolutely. So you were— were you touring? If you're solo, were you like in the car?

Yeah, we would sometimes— we would tour, you know, um, so Jerome's Dream was a trio, so we just split it up, 2 cars, 2 of us in each car. Wow. Okay.

And you're playing acoustic or you're playing electric?

No, I'd play electric and I had a little drum machine. Yes. Footswitch operated drum machine. Of course. Okay. So before—

so basically before every song you just hit the button.

Well, because it was footswitch operated, sometimes I could do it in the middle of the song.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't catch the foot— okay. Oh, shit. I'm sorry. I didn't catch that.

You're on some other shit. Yeah. Really high tech.

All right. So you think you're Ed Sheeran up there in the fucking bay. Okay. All right. All right. You got the look.

So you were the proto-digital busker for— okay, this is great. This is great. What do you— what, what was this foot-operated drum machine model number, just for our audiophiles?

I think, if I'm not— it was the Dr. Rhythm Boss 770, maybe, is the, the model. Dr.

Rhythm couldn't be a better name for a product than Dr. Rhythm. That's— well, how long did you do this, and how much did your parents hate it?

Oh yeah, even having a— even by having my drum machine called Dr. Rhythm, it somehow didn't satisfy my Indian parents.

They're like, "Oh, Dr. Rhythm? How about you fucking try that?" "Oh, that's a good name.

It's better than the name you had before." And you're like, "No, that's not the band name.

That's the name of my drum machine." Your drum machine went to medical school. Would it kill you to go to graduate school?

How'd this fucking machine graduate? I didn't even know machines could do that.

Okay, so when you started you started getting success with the podcast, did your parents begin to respect you yet, or not so much? What is it gonna take?

Well, they didn't know what a podcast was, so it took a while, it took a while.

What do you think their dreams for you were?

Oh, I mean, before I could express my disinclination, they definitely hoped that I would be a doctor.

Okay, are either of your parents doctors?

My dad has a PhD technically, so he is a doctor. Doctor here way. Okay. But, but no, my, my mom had lawyers and doctors in her family. And so when I said no, and her father was a judge, so it was like either, you know, be a doctor and if you're not going to be a doctor, okay, I suppose we can settle for the family tradition of law school or, you know.

Okay. So when you, when you tried to explain them the sort of Discord Records values, they weren't interested in that. So you're saying, okay, got it. I'm not surprised. I'm not totally surprised. Okay, so you're doing all that. Are they like letting you cook? Obviously, because you're going on tour, you're young when you're doing all this music stuff and you're touring in a car and shit. That's like a whole— are they just cool? They're like, this is a phase, or was it sort of like, we've lost this motherfucker, let's just pray?

And at that point, I think they were still like, do your hobby, that's okay, that's fine.

Because you were— you were— yeah, I'm sure you had good grades and you were pretty reasonable as a person.

Yeah, they noticed that I was I think they were losing me a little bit when I decided to be an art major in college. But then I said, look, I'm learning graphic design and then I'm using that graphic design to make websites. And that was a big freelance job back then. And so they were like, okay, there's a practical thing. You're using a computer. We understand that software engineering is also a job. And I guess that's maybe close to that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love it. They're just doing hula hoops to figure out a way to be like, okay, wait, this one I think is gonna, this one's gonna work.

So how many, How many websites for corporate accounts did you get back in the day?

You know, it was more like, it was more like I made a website for my friend's band and they bought me a burrito.

Yeah, I knew, I knew, I knew there was a burrito payment involved in this. I knew, I knew. Yeah. But it's funny because I know a lot of, I know a lot of people, obviously hardcore is full of kind of people like, like this, like sort of like your parents want more for you. They've been relatively successful. You didn't— you weren't in the slums, you know what I mean? You, you had the opportunity to do whatever you wanted, and then they're, they're a little bit bummed when you choose to do something else. But I— what my point is, I know most of my hardcore leaders did go to college and graduate, frankly enough. Yeah. Which I didn't, and neither did Jason, but I think a lot— most people I knew did. Yeah. Was that something you wanted to, or you felt like you had to, or a little bit of both?

I mean, there was no choice involved. Education was, for my parents, you know, that was the thing. We came to this country for opportunities. Education was the way to have any kind of a good life. You know, they just wanted to make sure that I could pay my bills and have some kind of stability, which I didn't have for, well, still don't have, but they just really, You know, I know it came from a good place, but they were just like, music was not any kind of paradigm that we had any exposure to or anything.

They really— But they liked you learning an instrument 'cause that's like well-rounded kids. Exactly, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, they're down with that. Oh, piano? All right, bet, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, it was their idea. Do you have brothers and sisters that are in more traditional, let's say, jobs?

Yeah, I have an older sister who really took the heat off me because She was a bio major and she's a biostatistician epidemiologist. She has a master's degree. Oh, wow. What are her thoughts on ivermectin?

Goddamn, she really is shitting on you. You're like, "Mom, I met Dua Lipa. It's on camera. What the fuck? What do you mean? You don't like that song?

Everybody likes that song." Okay, so your job only seems to impress the younger cousins in the Heerway family, maybe?

It was so exciting to discover that, yeah, my cousins even knew anything about this world. But my cousin Sai, I found out, you know, just, she lived in India at the time. And I was like, Sai, I feel like I know a little bit about your music. Like, you might like this band. I think it was Asobi Seksu. I sent her, I was like, I think you might like this. And she was like, oh yeah, I read about them on Pitchfork last week. And I was like, you know, you know, I know the internet's everywhere, but I know pitchfork.com is accessible from all regions, but this seems crazy.

Yeah, I mean, I guess that must have happened to you at some point. You went from being just a regular cousin to a Pitchfork reader. It happens to all of us, you know. Yeah, every—

it's— I have a— I have a gay cousin who will hit me every 6 months with some like, do you know Lana Del Rey? You know, have you—

have you met Lana Del Rey yet since the last time I texted you?

It's literally— it's every— it's every— every 6 months there's a gay icon, and I would say 1 of 4 times I do know them, and I feel really good about myself. The other 3, I'm like, something to work on. Yeah, something to work on, bro. I'll get there. I'll get there one day, you know?

No, I mean, I was doing all of this, uh, I was trying to thread the needle between, um, doing what I wanted and also still trying to like win the respect and admiration of my parents. Yeah, especially when my mom was still alive. Now I'm really just doing stuff to try and impress my 11-year-old niece.

Look, it's gonna— that's what I'm saying, it graduates, it fluctuates, it moves, it ebbs, it flows. I think there's always got to be 4th star.

So is it, is it easier dealing with your 11-year-old niece than, than your dad? Like, is, is your dad saying like, when are you gonna pivot to video, motherfucker? Or is your niece saying like, why, why aren't you pivoting to video yet?

Um, my niece, you know, will be like, you should do an episode of Song Exploder with this YouTube, uh, creator who I love. Their songs are really funny, you know.

Um, you're like, have you listened to my shit? It ain't funny. That ain't the point.

We ain't trying to be funny.

We're talking to Cat Stevens, all right?

Listen I think she might have listened for the first time when I had Sabrina Carpenter on.

Then she was very, very excited. That's fair. I mean, that's fair.

Sabrina Carpenter. Drag that cousin. Oh, I just dropped a new episode. I forgot who it is. Do you know Sabrina Carpenter or something like that?

I think she was like a Disney— she was on TV or something.

What Sabrina Carpenter song did you do, by the way?

Sorry. Please, please, please. So when you're listening to these songs, how many— what do you think your average listen is? Before you sit down to chop it up with whoever it is?

Like, how many times am I listening?

How many licks does it take to get to the center of the— How many times do you got to hit until it explodes? Yeah, exactly. A song.

A song, you guys. How many times you got to hit before the song explodes? I mean, because I look, when I like a song, like, you know, if I like— I have a song right now on my phone I've probably listened to 30 times in the last 2 days because it's new and I like it and I just, you know, but I don't know if that would—

you know, so yeah, exactly, exactly.

I don't know if that would prepare me to talk the way you talk because you have to go into it with a mindset of what the end result is, or can you just listen passively and the sort of thoughts come to you, you know what I mean? When I'm doing the interview, I'm saying in preparation because you're clearly preparing something we, we don't do here. And what I guess I'm saying, I could listen to a song a million times.

You mentioned the 1 AM radio, Chris. That is incredible preparation.

Well, that's— Chris didn't do his research. Chris was— I lived it, baby.

I lived it. It's a lived experience. You were. But no, but I guess I'm saying that I listen to songs over and over and over, and maybe I'll learn the words, you know, passively. But I'm saying you're, you're getting so in-depth on the structure of the song. You're listening, but you're having to like take notes and think about it in a different way. You can't just do that off the dome.

Yeah, well, you know, the real secret of the show, the whole reason the show exists. And, you know, I don't— it takes zero licks because I get the stems for the song, so I can go straight to the center of the Tootsie Pop. I'm losing the metaphor.

The center of the what?

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that bitch feeling dumb I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, you're fine, you know, drink more water.

He knows how to charge my copay.

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Okay, well, some of these songs, like when I would get a stem for a remix, it's because I have been asked to remix a song and they trust that I will not share these files and I will send them back a remix. What happens when you get some of these songs where the stems are not meant to be released at all to anyone? Do you have to sign an NDA or is there some— Okay. Yeah, it's some of, some of the tunes. They're getting you some real, they're dusting off the fine shit from at the top of the cellar, like real-to-real stems and shit like that sometimes?

I mean, that's been some of the craziest times on the show when, I mean, we just did an episode with Buckingham Nicks and the stems didn't exist and they didn't even know where the tapes were. So they wanted to do the show.

Right, bro, we were two 8-balls in, we put those in a basement somewhere, bro. It's lord of the tapes, bro. Exactly. I think we saw those tapes by accident. I don't even know. Okay.

So did you have to use AI to break those stems down?

No. Although that has been suggested a few times. Okay. But no, they actually tracked down the tapes in the archives, found them, dusted them off, digitized them, and then, and then we got to do it.

Damn, that's, that's honestly powerful because I feel like you're— do you feel like you get, get what you want most of the time because it's like pretty prestigious and sort of a rite of passage? Or do you think people are a little scared to have the raw stems exposed? On such a large platform.

No, I mean, so now we have this thing going where there's, there is a label who will just not work with us anymore because they, they don't want to share their stems at all.

But there was a, there was a, I imagine there was a tipping point for this stem.

Yeah, is this like a Celine and Condé Nast type of thing?

Yeah, like you gave a bad review of the show and they won't let you ever come to another show again?

No, no, It's, it's not like personally directed at, at Song Exploder. It's just sort of a blanket policy that, uh, and we're, we're catching it.

We don't stem. It just seems like, seriously, I mean, I don't know, it just seems like such a great— as far as like, because all this, you know, all the discourse now is about how, you know, quote-unquote celebrity interviews are trash. It's people saying nothing, they don't know anything about this and anything about that, they're asking about smoothies and fucking, you know, what TV show you watch So I feel like musicians, a lot of them would love to be taken seriously as artists. Like Sabrina Carpenter, I think, is a great example. Like, she's so big that no one even thinks of her like that because she's such a pop star. It's like that doesn't even cross people's minds. So the opportunity to showcase that with you seems like, for a label, a great opportunity.

I think, you know, for some people, for some musicians, it is the thing that feels right. I mean, it's the reason why I made the show is because I was I was like, I want to make a show that asks the questions that I wish somebody would ask me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

I mean, that makes sense. I just, I just feel like it's like, it's, it's palatable even though it's, it's serious and kind of in the weeds. I think it hits a sweet spot where it's like still entertaining. I mean, bro, the fucking— the Netflix thing, is that happening again or was that a one and done?

That was one and done, unfortunately.

Those motherfuckers, come on, you got in too early, bro.

You got in too early.

It's been $100 million on a roast at Kevin Hart, they can't break you off a couple bills? I don't— I mean, okay, well, what if it—

what what if they turn it into a video podcast instead of a TV show? You know what I mean?

I don't think we could do it.

I mean, I still get the same amount of money, just none of your employees get paid. Is that cool with you? Right? Yeah, yeah. As well as no benefits whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I thought it was—

I was like, this is such a great— I mean, I'm a big REM— like, that shit, I was getting choked up. That shit is no joke. Yeah. Like, watching Stipe react to that, it's like unbelievable to me. I was like, this is exactly what I want to watch on television.

Had goosebumps on those white big thighs, huh, Chris? Really, though?

But I mean, and I understand that it's not for everybody, but I also feel like you guys went pretty like— I mean, maybe mainstream's the wrong word, but it was pretty like palatable, you know? It was R.E.M., The Killers, Dua Lipa. I think there's one— was there one more? There were, yeah.

There was, uh, also Alicia Keys, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Natalia Lafourcade, um, Ty Dolla Sign.

Except for Lin-Manuel Miranda, all those are legends. Yeah, yeah, good musicians.

But Lin-Manuel Miranda, I get it, you want the Broadway crowd, I get it. Like, you gotta pander a little bit. But I'm saying like, that to me feels like the Hamilton stems.zip. I got, I got held up at gunpoint for my Hamilton stems. But I think that that's a, that's what I mean. It felt like a, I don't know, that's disappointing. And I know that's how it goes, but it felt like that was a, you guys played ball as far as like the actual, and I'm sure you didn't have much of a choice, but still.

When you say people, you, you want to have a situation where you can ask people questions that you wish you would be answered, and then maybe there's a void that you're trying to fill. Have you ever had a moment where you were going through the stems and you are a musician, you have a musical ear, you're proficient in Pro Tools, and things like that. So have you ever been like, I finally got the fuck— these fucking Fleetwood Mac stems. I've been dying to hear what it sounds like with just the bass and the drums in the pocket, you know, without all the other stuff. Like, have you ever hit that moment? You're like, you guys ever hear it with just this and this? And then have the guests be like, dude.

Yeah. I mean, it's really fun to get people to— because the other thing that makes it magical besides letting the listeners hear those parts on their own is it's a real memory-triggering device. Yeah, yeah. For people, 'cause it's hard to get people to think about what their actual mental state was, what their creative intention was in the moment if you're just talking about it. But when you play that stuff, sometimes it's the first time they've heard it since making the track. That's right. And when they hear it, it's like a Proustian—

That's what I'm saying, that's the trick. Makes it— that to me is what I do think. That's the whole thing.

It's the Ratatouille moment. Exactly. It's like when they play like old, you know, songs from the '30s and '40s to people with Alzheimer's, and you know, they've been non-verbal for 5 years, and then they hear— and they just get up out of their seat and start dancing. That sound memory, it hits you, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. Almost as much as the smell.

But that's what I mean. I think when you're asking somebody to explain a lyric in a fucking hotel room, it's a little different. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's a little— it's a little— it's just a different, you know, whatever. It's just a different different sort of approach to the whole thing.

Yeah, here they only have to react to themselves.

Have you ever made a remix out of the stems and presented it to them? You know? Yeah. Let me hold on. Unsolicited, of course.

While I have you, just while I have you, if you want to check this out.

Look, I know Fleetwood Mac Dreams. It's a good little track, but I kind of mixed— did it, moved some things around. I think it kind of sings a little bit better.

I think I added this shuffle that you're going to like. I think I— just stick with me on this. Yeah.

Do you have anything in the private folder? You know what I mean?

For those DJ sets. Oh man. That would be— No comment? No comment. Yeah, sure. Of course you can't.

I need the little Arthur Russell rework ass version of some shit, you know?

It's a remix. It's only the ums that I cut out.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Real podcast style.

I mean, it's your podcast reflex at hand. So you, I heard you on our friend of the show Blammo's podcast and you were talking about how much you edit the audio version of your podcast, and that's a big reason why the thought of pivoting to video might not work for you, the format, because you're doing what, 20 cuts a minute or something you said? Yeah, that's just going to be too jarring even for today's ADD standards.

Um, are you like super good at editing audio now, and have you thought about giving video a Only out of necessity because now I have to make TikToks because if you're a musician these days, like you have to, you're also putting out videos. So yeah, I've been learning Premiere, making my little, making my little reels.

You literally sound like Jason. You literally, that's exactly, Jason has said those exact words to me before.

And, and I also sound like how you just sounded, which is like a 5-year-old telling his parent what they did at preschool today. Like, and then I made my reels and good. Good, good. And then I got to have lunch. Okay, so are you going at it with like a positive attitude, or is it like, goddamn son of a bitch, I hate that I have to do front-facing to camera, hey guys, check out my new album, you know, like that kind of shit?

Definitely the latter.

Yeah, yeah, this is— it's— we got into audio for a reason.

Yeah, exactly. And, and like I said, the first version I didn't even speak.

I would rather—

yeah, yeah, rather just be like, here's the thing thing and never have to, you know, say anything about it. Do you see it?

Does it work though? Do you know what I'm saying? Is there like— is there tangible—

I think it does work. That's—

see, that's my— that's my— that's the— yeah, I mean, I think it's like— I, I think it can and will, but I do think it's like— I think it's been sold to us as this sort of like instantaneous fix to all of your problems. It's like, oh, you just gotta do videos.

You open the app and the first one is a video that's got gazillions of views and comments. And you know, it's somebody who's just like, "Imagine if these two bands were put together, it would sound like this." And you—

Hey, it's better than the guy in the car eating all the new Crumbl cookies every week. You know what I mean? At least this takes some talent.

Yeah. But there's always this little tease of like, this could be you. This could be— maybe the next one is gonna be the one that's gonna suddenly make you feel legitimate as an artist.

Well, let's workshop some ideas because I feel like those songs then, those moments that go viral on social media, a lot of times there's, you know, it's a reaction to a meme. It is a new dance craze. It's a new whatever, like exciting forms of music, you know, club music, hip hop, like that kind of stuff is going viral much easier than your Iron and Wine style of, you know, bedroom folk. So we're gonna have to think outside the bedroom, aren't we?

I will say it's not the most viral genre.

No, no. I keep on starting all the videos with here's a song about death, and yet it doesn't seem to—

doesn't seem to touch. Okay, well, here's another idea. So you have a song on the album that's all about the buffalo that live on Catalina Island off the coast of LA. California listeners— okay, research. See, okay, so that's a phenomenon where like a friend of mine who works for the LA Times, he's got this video series called 101, I think, and he will go and explain these little random anomalies like, oh, did you know the light posts used to be this or where, you know, random stuff. I feel like if you did a little, we're taking a boat to Catalina and we're gonna check out the buffalo and I'm gonna give you a history lesson about all these and I have a new song and it's about like, do these buffaloes know that they're stuck on a little island off the coast of fucking Malibu? Do they, do they wish they were back with the buffaloes in whatever, Vancouver, BC or something? Yeah. You know, now we're getting somewhere. Yeah. And then they'll be forced to listen to the music. Yeah. Do you, what label are you on?

Keeld Scales. Okay. Are they, is there pressure from them or is it pressure from yourself? It's pressure from myself.

Do I talk to them about budgets or how does this work?

I think we've got, I think we might have the budget as well as the performer on the phone right now with us, Jason. I think he might, I think we might be, they're in the room with us now.

Look, I don't need a glass bottom boat, but I'm going to need something that's got a little horsepower. Okay.

No, but it is, it is funny though. I think it's like, it really is, it is sold to us as a heal-all for all, you know, sort of creative problems is like video will fix you. Yeah. And I think that there's, they're forgetting sometimes that people, some people are good at it and want to do it. And some people are doing it with a gun to their head and it maybe isn't gonna translate the exact same way. Mm-hmm.

And then there's always the disconnect potentially where the video does really well, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna go listen to the song. Yeah, no, 100%. Somewhere else. Or like the clip on the clip of the podcast is going to go viral. But does that mean that the actual episode gets more listens?

No, they say that the clip is the content nowadays. It's no longer the vehicle to get you to listen to the podcast or the album. So that means you're going to have to start putting ads in your songs. Are you okay with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's, let's go ahead and get a BetterHelp chorus in there and we'll see how it works.

Yeah. I mean, we have to think out like, This shit is moving fast. Like there was a basketball game, there was a Knicks game, and they superimposed green screen Kith logo on the floor. And I know that other podcasts, maybe they take place on a subway or something like that. Maybe there's going to be some green screen ads placed on there or all of your favorite TikTok shows or video things where the clip is the content. Now we have to start putting ads on these clips.

I like this for you. Yeah. Yeah. You could, you could fit a Squarespace mention in a bridge. Like it's not that crazy. Yeah. It's not that crazy. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, it's—

this house is a Squarespace. This house is a home.

Hey, I want to tell you about this middle 8. I want to tell you about this.

I mean, I think that there is, yeah, there, there's going to be continuing pressure, but I think it's also, I think we have to give ourselves the grace to sort of figure out whatever the lane is that works for, for you. I mean, whatever the video, whatever that video thing is, it doesn't necessarily have to be what everybody else is doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Be yourself. And if it doesn't work, start cooking. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Or we just wait for some other app to rule our lives and then, you know, and then we adapt to that instead.

Are you on TikTok as a user?

I, I technically now do have a, uh, an account as of like a month ago. With 29 followers.

Your label forced you to? You don't use it?

You don't scroll? You're not watching? No. Yeah, that's powerful.

Good for you. I'm glad you can resist.

I'm too old.

Well, I have Instagram and that's really like, I've gotta put all the screen time warnings and everything so I don't hang out on there too long.

Why buy heroin when you got free oxy at home? I get it, brother.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Oh baby, I need a hit, I tell you what. No, Chris, no. Oh baby. Oh no, no, no. But you seem like a very calm, controlled, you seem like you're a pretty measured, a more injured guy overall?

I think that the calm and the control are working against each other, actually. Like, the control part is the thing that makes me the least calm.

So you're saying you can't, like, let go and let God or let other people help you because the control, your grip is so tight that it's maybe negative in the long run? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, I made this record where we did the whole thing live and it was just, the most stressful thing in my life because I couldn't go and be, you know, go back and do the things I would normally do.

And you also had to have other people play instruments because you could— you can only play one or two maybe at the most at a time. Exactly. Okay, do you think there's somebody out there who can edit Song Exploder better than you can? Oh God, probably. But if you If you paid them to have that job, they would make more money than you? Oh, no. Well, that's how I feel about How Long Gone. If I found somebody to edit the show with this cadence and, you know, 3 episodes a week and they go up the next day and blah, blah, blah. If somebody asked me to do that, I would ask for an annual salary that is a large amount.

Oh yeah. Oh yes, exactly. That's, yeah, to do this job, job for someone, uh, as a real grown-up job, um, it would—

nobody would do it. Yeah, you, you set the, the search parameter filters for what you're looking for, and wouldn't you know it, zero results found.

Yeah, exactly. It's just a picture of myself that—

it's just— yeah, it's just you.

It just turns on the selfie cam. It's you, fucker. Get back to work. Quit Googling shit. Oh, you're locked in now. About. But, but now, but also you're so good at it. You, you know yourself, you know the show, you know the flow, you do it all yourself. The thought of, you know, splitting up that, that podcast money with other people, you know, you have, you have a standard of living that we can't really upset.

Other people work on the show and I would absolutely die without them. What? Pussy. Just kidding. But you, but you, when you're in the zone, you're in the zone, so Yeah, I mean, we all kind of work solo, and then we'll kind of come back and, you know.

How many people are on the squad?

3 of us, 4 of us if you include the illustrator who does all the artwork for every episode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, and how many are you banking, like how many are in the hopper at any given time?

You know, if things are really, really great, then we've got like the next one on deck and the next one after that. 2, 2 in the hot— besides the one that we're working on.

That's crazy. Yeah, that's not that— I thought it might be a little crazier than that because you— but it's always on, it's not seasonal, right?

Right, exactly. No, it's always on. Yeah, I mean, again, another reason why nobody would want this job.

Well, that's what I said, the always-on thing is also very Podcasting 1.0. Yeah, yeah, that's very Podcasting 1.0. I feel like no one really— or if they do do that, if they do do it, it's like once a month, you know, or some like fake schedule where it's like it doesn't really count, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, because we only do 2 a month, so having, having even 2 in there means we're, you know, 6 weeks out. You got time. Yeah, yeah.

And what's the pro— what's the process of like choosing the song, or is that, is that kind of just you being like pitched plus what you want to do plus what other people are— you just— it's kind of a grab bag?

Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's— I've learned that no matter how good of an idea I think it is, um, the only way an episode is going to happen is if it's something that's getting pitched to me.

Really?

Really? Yeah, it has, it has to be their idea or else it's probably not going to happen.

Yeah, I mean, have you tried to reach out to guests and, uh, as opposed to, um, you know, sort of respond?

I reach out to guests all the time.

Yeah, they're not all Elton John, but you know.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's more often a situation where either we have some sort of relationship, we have an intermediary like a friend in common, or Yeah, I mean, this happened a few times where I just like, like something and I'm like, damn, that was sick, I'm gonna DM them and see if they'll come on, you know, whether it's a book or whatever, you know what I mean? And more time that often works. Yeah, because they're like, oh, that's cool, let's do it. But I would say the pitch thing is more like it— I would say that's where some of the more surprising ideas come from. Whether they work or not is, is sort of up to the audience, I would say. But like, right, like Nathan Lane coming up, you know, I get some, you know, blanket PR email about Nathan Lamb, like, oh, gotta get Nathan Lamb on How Long Gone. They're like, oh shit, that's funny. And then he comes on, he's like, who are these fucking idiots? And we're sort of like, this guy's kind of a dick, but it's fun, you know what I mean? It's like, good for us.

Nathan, remember that one time on The Birdcage? That was awesome. And he's like, who are you people? But the—

yeah, but the in-between, I think that the, the sweet spot is like someone we know cool, you know, like socially, that also has something going on that people like, and their team also knows what they're getting into. Like, there's a world where that— or it's somebody that we actually talk to every day and the audience is like, this is funny because it feels like there's no one selling anything, it's just like a bunch of people talking, you know. Yeah, that, that's also a big part.

But do you feel like your show could be considered like a little bit of a minefield for some of the artists where they're like, I don't know if I want to take a look under the hood because I have so much you know, post-production to it. Because like when I was thinking about Chris, like we have a lot of friends who are famous celebrities doing whatever they do. They listen to the pod and if we're like, hey, you know, blah blah blah, come on the pod, Clairo's gonna be like, I'm, I'm not fucking going on your show, dog. Like I got nothing to lose, everything to gain. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, like so, so like your show, it's more so, you know, you're in service of this artist and you're, it's going to be a bit of a glaze off. So it's not like I don't want to go on there and get a gotcha moment, you know?

Yeah, I mean, the show's only made of the stuff they say. Yeah, yeah, it's their funeral.

Yeah, it's like, you made your bed, bro, so I'm only gonna read it back to you.

But I do tell them, you know, I'm like, if at the end of this, if you, if you say, if you feel like you said something that you don't want me to include, just tell me and I won't.

Yeah, okay. I mean, has it ever happened with like, we're gonna listen to the Dua Lipa vocal stems on unaffected by effects and where they're going to be like, maybe we don't need to hear the 100% raw file.

No, I mean, I think, well, two things. One, they control what they send me.

I was about to say, they ain't sending you the raw. You ain't never heard a raw file. You've heard 1 AM Radio raw files and that's about it. They ain't sending you—

We sent you vocalfile.wav. And that's it. Not 78 versions of it.

But usually, even if I get something that is really raw, it's, I mean, sometimes I get the voice memo, you know, it's like the first thing they made. Yeah, that's cool. And it's really, it's absolutely rough around the edges. But it's cool. I think that everybody is okay with it because they know that in the end they've got a song that came out of it, like a real finished thing. So you can talk about all the weird stuff and the missteps steps that got you there, because you know that ultimately the story that's being told is a success story. Yeah, that's true.

Like, however we got here, it clearly worked is kind of the vibe.

Yeah, I mean, like, once you have the reveal, you take off your glasses and you put down your hair and you're super hot, it's fine to show the pictures of what you looked like when you were 12.

Oh, I was like actually so nerdy. Yeah, I mean, I think there's also some, I mean, I think when people can really sing sang also, or really write songs, it's like the voice memo is crazy. Yeah, because you're sort of like, wow, I can hear it. This is exactly— I totally see it. Like, I totally, totally get it. I'm not— that's not everyone, of course, but it's pretty powerful, I think, when it works that way.

Indeed it is, Chris.

What can I say?

Okay, well, we're ending up— we're, we're closing down. We're, we're landing the plane. I want to know about what kind of pods you listen to. The Potter's Pod.

Pods. I listen to a lot of Off Menu. Do you listen to that show?

I have listened to it before. Can you explain it for our listeners?

It is a food, in theory, food podcast hosted by the British comedians James Acaster and Ed Gamble, and they have a guest on and they ask them to tell them about their dream. It's a magic restaurant. You can have whatever food you want. Tell us about your dream. Same, um, entree and appetizer and side dish, dessert, drink. And, um, I, I love a format, you know.

Yeah, you're the opposite of— I hate— if I'm allergic to a format. But I, I really— that's actually pretty— that, that's pretty open-ended though. That's like a— I know that's technically a format, but you can go a lot of places with that, I feel like.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I would say you guys have a format too.

What's our format? It's the two of you.

Two people is not a format. Two guys?

It's the two of you. He's kind of right.

It's basically, it's a vice and you put the guest in between and then you just slowly squeeze.

Okay, how pressurized do your temples feel at the moment as we're approaching one hour?

You know, it's actually, it's a gentle kind of pressure. It's a Temple Grandin kind of, I don't know.

Yeah. It's more of a boiling frog. We'll call it. Right, exactly.

A classic boiling frog. All right. That's a pretty off menus. I mean, I've heard of it before.

I know it's pretty popular. No, I've listened to that. And it's an example of how the British are heads and shoulders above the rest of America in terms of like quick witty banter. And just, they're just a nonstop fire hose of just filling dead space with Perfect Words. Yeah. I'm not, I'm, I'm not saying that those guys are so good, but like that format, you, you chuck it on. It doesn't matter who the guest is as long as you like the food. It doesn't matter if the guest food sucks as long as you like the guest.

And then it's very listenable. Yeah. Print Money. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. That's a good one. Yep. But you also listen to How Long Gone.

Well, you, well, you, you all are just too prolific for me to keep up with everything. I mean, I have—

That's a very nice way to put it.

You, it sounds like you need to be walking the reservoir a little bit more.

Come on, man. It's not that hard. Come on, what do you mean? You don't commute anywhere? You ain't got no time to kill, bro? What do you mean?

Also, like, just the, the relaxing moment of not listening to something after, after either working on music or working on podcast stuff, and just my ears like, oh, have some peace, have some peace in those ear canals. Take the cans off. Take the cans off, he said.

All right, well, that's great.

Okay, come home, cans off, bra off, hair in a pony, get it done. I get it.

I put on my OVO sweat, so I got my legs crossed. I'm watching Netflix.

Take my headphones off.

Oh, finally, there's a new episode of Love Is Blind Poland. Babe, come here.

I think we're going to order in today. Okay, well, thanks for taking the time to pod with us. Your new album is available now streaming. It is not created with AI, and you could listen to it with your AI chatbot if you want. You can. You're okay with that?

Oh, I encourage it.

In fact, stream is a stream.

I don't give a fuck. He's like, they're vinyl too, bro. We got vinyl too. Whatever it takes.

He's going to be doing some live show performances with some other guests in conversation, a little music, a little talk, a little that, uh, with some cool names, Manzoukas and some other people all over the country. Check out the, the IG for those dates. And that's it, bro. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me, guys.

Thank you. It was really good. It was really good to have you. And we love talking to a pro, and, and we are fans, so it's nice to break bread.

That really means so much. I was so, so intimidated to do this.

Please, bro. No, we— you know what, one thing about us. We can be assholes, but we respect professionals. That is one thing I will say across the board. That is one thing that we can be pretty consistent about, um, especially when it comes to this medium. There are not that many people have been doing it as long as you have, really.

You know, at the top is just us. At the top, it's just us. Now that Marin's gone—

yeah, now that— RIP Marin. RIP Marin. How many cats do you think he has now? I don't— we don't have time for that. A lot. A lot. All right, thank you for joining us, and we'll see you soon, bro. Okay, sounds great. Appreciate it. Better.

Thanks, man.

What if this goes on and on and on?

What if this goes on and on and on?

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