904. - Converge

All right, uh, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it 3 times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you?

We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place.

All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. All right. How long gone? It is—

All right.

All right. It's Tuesday, February 10th. It's 11:45 AM here on the East Coast in moneymaking Manhattan where the temperature's have mercifully, uh, risen to double-digit numbers. It felt on the walk to the gym today when it was 25, it felt like I was in fucking Miami shirtless, um, which is a nice trick to, you know, you play on yourself. It's a gift, really.

We take what we can get, Chris.

We take what we can get. Um, we take what we can get.

So happy for you.

Thank you. Thank you.

We're up to 25 degrees Fahrenheit. Did you have a good— what, what, what day was it at the gym for you? What part of your body did you focus on?

Today was a lower. We did some back squats, some RDLs, Bulgarian split squats, leg press, lunges, calf raises, and then some reverse crunch finishers.

Wow, you remember all of this workout very well. You just recalled it as if it was off of a spreadsheet or something. I'm impressed.

I don't— yeah, yeah, I don't— look, I don't know my middle name or my parents' birthdays, but the important, the important stuff you kind of keep, keep in the, in the front lobe.

I'm glad you're getting those Bulgarians going, you know, really good to pop that fat little ass of yours out, huh?

The worst thing. One of the— there's very few exercises I truly hate, but the Bulgarian split squat is one of them. And, and I think, I think a lot of people would agree with me on that. I don't think that's a unique feeling.

It's not awesome. It's not awesome. But when you lock in, it's not awesome. When you lock in, it can feel really good. It's true.

No, it's true. It's also—

and once I finally do lock in, it's going to be amazing.

It's a balance issue.

It's a balance issue for me and probably a lot of men, especially ones that height mog you. It does get more difficult The taller you get.

Unfortunately, I think we have to— I know it's one of the first or second times, but I think we have to ban mogged on the program.

All right, that was the last one.

Fuck it. I know I haven't read— there's a— there's a— in The Bulwark today, there's a big story on, on Clavi, um, that I'm interested to get into. I have not had a chance to read it yet, but between that and the David Remnick story on Joe Rogan, I'll tell you what, the manosphere is eating.

Yeah, I mean, I don't— I don't know what The Bulwark can tell me about Clavi that I don't already know.

I think there's probably—

no shade—

probably there's actually a lot about Klavv that we don't know.

Well, if we include you in the we, but I'm a little, you know, I've been in the chat rooms, I've been in the Discords, okay? I've been—

okay, that's, that's on you, big dog.

I've known Klavv since he was, what, 7 or 8, probably.

So like, I can't believe that these terms that, that have— I mean, it feels like I'm gonna get a text from my mom tomorrow. Yeah, talking about, talking about like the width of some guy's shoulders, you know, and how he body mogged him.

Pro—

what was it? What did he say?

Frame.

It's not frame mogged. Yes, frame mogged, which is a new, a new art framing service that I think we're going to start using.

She's like, are you going to, Chris, are you going to holiday mug me on Easter? Are you going to come down? You're going to come down and see your grand— you're going to go down and see your nieces, Christopher.

I get holiday mogged. I'm not going to be at church, losers. I'm going to be in Tampa.

Okay. Well, so much, much like the first time somebody tries a Juul pen for whatever, you know, You take it and you're like, I cannot have this again or else it's gonna be too slippery of a slope. I cannot, we cannot say these words anymore or else it'll be too easy to have it sort of dip into our lexicon seamlessly in a way that we—

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're days away.

We're driving out of control.

I feel like we're days away from that happening if it hasn't already happened. Okay, let's put our foot down. We're putting, on How Long Gone, we're putting our foot down.

How Long Gone feet challenge.

How long? Games are open, feet for free, when we're putting them down. God damn it. Yeah, I mean, I think he's gonna die sooner than we think though. It's looking bad once, once you're in jail and it's, it's sort of like that going, going to jail multiple times in like a week, even if it's for short stints, that is tiptoeing towards death's door.

I would say it is a little, um, you know, hopefully he'll sort of enter some type of like Gen Z Andy Dick kind of thing where he's just like a lovable, you know, he's a lovable—

I think Andy Dick unfortunately is no longer that, but he did have a moment where he was.

Yeah, I guess, I guess the guy hasn't been lovable since, uh, Bill Clinton was in office.

Unless, not unless you're, you know, not unless you're looking to kick someone down while they're down on Hollywood Boulevard, you know, it's not really, it's not great.

Who amongst us haven't been there? Okay, well, you also mentioned Remnick. Big Remy, he's got to come on the pod soon, right? No, me fry. Let me give editor at the New Yorker's email.

I don't know if Remy Ma is going to be coming on. I mean, I think we—

Why not?

I mean, I just think—

I think, well, I mean, I read some of that story about Joe Rogan and it was, you know, he's running that shit for a reason. The guy's got a gift, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, something I've seen, the response to that Rogan thing, which is really funny is that there's— I don't know if there's necessarily data to back this up, but maybe it's more of a gut feeling or, or a personal research. But where it's like most people that hate Joe Rogan and say it's bad have never listened to it. And sure, I believe that I have listened to it. I can say that it's bad. Um, but I, I, I think that maybe is part of the problem. You have to, you have to at least listen to something if you're going to say it's bad.

And you think, you think Remy did the work?

Oh, Remy definitely did the work. Those guys are rigorous over there at The New Yorker. But I think that, I think that—

pause—

I think that maybe, I think that maybe some people on the internet aren't quite as rigorous as one of our greatest, greatest publications.

Right.

We should talk about the Super Bowl. Doom, ka doom, ka doom, ka doom, ka. I— Okay.

Okay.

I— look, Bad Bunny's music is—

Oh, I could— I sure could go for a coco frío right now.

Bad Bunny's music is really bad. And I don't even get what he's— he's not even rapping. He's not even singing. He's just sort of talking. But I got to say, That was A+. That had it all, man. And I would— the production value was amazing. It was all really good. I like people dressed up as, as, as grass, you know what I mean? I think that's cool.

I was, I was wondering because I saw on the little, the commercial break, they're teasing it out. I saw the people lined up as like the trees, bushes, whatever. And I was like, oh, those are people. And I can't wait until, you know, the encore, the finale of the show when the fireworks are going off. When the trees suddenly become dancers and they start moving in unison like, like a cat's eye. But no, I think they just stood there. They just said, why? What's the point?

Uh, the point is that I think erecting that would be more costly and more annoying. And I think doing it that way, if you're in the— if you were at—

maybe that's a plan so stupid it just might work type of situation.

It could be. But I thought it was— I thought he was great. And I thought that it was, um, I'm not surprised it's the highest rated of all time. But I also think those numbers go up year over— you know what I mean? It's sort of like it's going to go up year over year based on, based on things out of their control. Um, I did not tune in to the other halftime show. I was at the— I was at the Puck Oscar de la Renta. Yeah, football, which I have to say, very well done as well. They had Oscar de la Renta cheerleaders. Uh, there was soft serve, you know, it had— it kind of had everything you needed.

Cheerleaders and soft serve. What was the— what was the buffalo chicken dip situation?

There was— there, there was people hand making guacamole in front of you, uh, which is nice. I think it's respect.

They're into touch.

They, they don't, they don't, they don't skimp over there. Uh, but it was a, but it was, it was a good, it was honestly a good party, but we left pretty early because it was a Sunday night. Um, but sure. Yeah, I mean, I, I thought the, the, the Kid Rock halftime show thing is— you know what's cool about right-wing people, Jason?

I'd love to hear.

It's just that they—

boat ownership.

Well, boat ownership, concealing carry. But I just think that the, the lack of taste, like the lack of taste in hanging on until the— like trying to say that that was good. If you have two eyes and a brain, I don't care how much you hate immigrants and how much you love Donald Trump, that was bad. You have to at a certain point— and some people are coming around being like, you know what, like, not everybody's Megyn Kelly. Football is not ours. Football belongs to the world.

Yeah. Nick Fuentes doesn't know anything about football. He's, he's going to bow out of this.

Nick Fuentes. Nick Fuentes said it was good. And he's never, you know, he's never been with a big booty Latina either. So I don't know what he— but I just think it's, it's an incredible skill that they have. And I think they've learned it from Donald Trump where you just sort of like, hang on, you don't give a fuck. You just hold the line no matter what.

Deny everything. Take it to the grave. There's always a way to wiggle out.

When you got Zach Bryan, Zach Bryan coming out and saying, you guys are losers for doing this. I just think it's a— it was really it sort of felt like a, uh, not an ending, but it was really a distinct chapter in this whole saga.

Yeah, I would say they were— yeah, it was— they, they had hired actors in the audience. They don't— they— their people think it was not actually a live stream because they couldn't get the technology. They just recorded it a few days earlier in Florida. They got, um, they got ratings mogged by the Puppy Bowl. The list also—

also, I just want to say, and I, I don't—

oh, sorry, I said the M-word. I'm gonna put a dollar in the jar.

It's like, I put a dollar— that's actually a good idea. We have a mog jar. But I think that there's also something to be said. I think, look, wearing shorts on stage is very controversial. Uh, and I, I, I say if you're on Warped Tour, it's allowed.

Who are you, Jacob Bannon?

I say if you're allowed, you're allowed to wear shorts on stage if you're on Warped Tour. Other, other situations, I think unless it's 100 degrees in a parking lot in Scottsdale, if you're touching the stage You got to wear pants. And Kid Rock, I know that he's— like you said, he's used to being on a boat, more of a pontoon than a yacht. Let's not go Barry Diller mode. But I think that there's something to be said about his choice. I feel like his choice to wear shorts says everything we need to know about that show.

Well, I have some thoughts on his legwear because he was wearing the white Skechers slip-ons, which are— okay, which are, you know, so slip-ons. The Skechers shoes, they have a lot of influencers working for them. Kid Rock, Martha Stewart, Snoop Dogg, you know, kind of these. Oh, also the mom from Modern Family, Julia.

Julie, I think is her name.

No, no, no. The Latina, Sofia Vergara.

Oh, Sofia Vergara.

Manny, where are my Skechers?

So do not bring Manny up on this podcast.

Goddamn it. Don't let me mansplain. Season 4, episode 17.

Mansplain? How much time you got, bro?

They got a lot of seasons. Okay. I'm wondering, kid is like, I don't— I can't find a way to make these shoes pop and get my little Skechers check. I don't know what to do with the hemline. Do I roll them? You know, like, it's a hard shoe to pair with a pant. So he decided, fuck it, you know, this thing is over anyway. This, you know, they're playing on the Titanic while it's going down. I might as well wear a rash guard while I'm at it, you know what I mean? Why put on my tops and tails when this thing is just a you know, dead on arrival.

Tops and Tails. Imagine, imagine what Kid Rock—

where—

I wonder where Kid Rock would get a tuxedo from, because I feel like there's, there's like a third place we don't know. Boot Barn. That's not the mall, that's not Boot Barn, that's not Men's Warehouse. There's something else. There's like another—

he goes to like an old, like, Now and Later Gator, like, old black guy atelier somewhere.

That's probably right.

I mean, I guess he used to back when he was welcomed in the community, and now, um, they don't let him. No, Kid Rock is not welcome to the cookout anymore.

Hood pass revoked for the kid. Uh, no, it was a great— it was a really bad football game from what I understand. Um, and Drake did lose $1 million and Bad Bunny did wear Zara. So there was a lot of weird stuff happening, don't get me wrong, but I, I thought that the overall, you know, that was the only real—

Bunny got a million, Drake lost a million.

Oh, I don't think Bunny— I don't think Bunny got a million. I bet Bunny— I bet Bunny's record label came out of pocket on that one. I bet it is.

Yeah, I mean, the Bunny breaks even, but with the Zara deal, you know, push him over the—

that's true—

push him over the line. This is just my speculation.

I also like that people online thought that his jersey was for AOC, not his last name, like his uncle's last name, his own last name. Like, you guys are really stupid. It's really getting unbelievable out there, the lines, the parallels that they are trying to draw.

Yeah, when you're like, there's no way that they'll think this— oh, okay— like when you're watching, they've done it again. Like you, hey, don't go out there. It's a giant minefield. There's signs everywhere. Oh, and he's going out there and he stepped on a mine. Okay, well, didn't think that was going to happen. Wow. But there's still people out there who are going to do that.

Didn't think it was going to go down like that. All right. We do have a guest today, Jason, a legend really in the game. Jacob Bannon, the singer from Converge, a band that Jason and I have both been listening to since we were, you know, in middle school. Um, they have a new album out that is getting rave reviews. Actually saw a Pitchfork review today, it was like a 7-point-something. Um, let's go, Love Is Not Enough. Uh, he also owns the, the Death Wish record label. He's an artist, he does it all. Uh, still straight edge, I believe, uh, as well. So let's, um, let's go to the depths of Massachusetts and, uh, get into it here with, with Jacob. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by our best friends at BetterHelp. Jason, we're, we're deep into May, which is, uh, Mental Health Awareness Month, and this is just a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it alone. Life is a damn journey. Some days feel good and others feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own, but the truth is No one has all the answers. Well, and no journey should be alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can really make all the difference.

I agree, Chris. And sometimes, you know, it, it's nice to be talking to somebody even if they're not even listening, even if you don't even get to be in the same room with them, because what you're doing is you're admitting these things to yourself. And that's the most, that's the most rewarding thing you can do sometimes. So you can have a great little therapy sesh with your perfect therapist at BetterHelp. Choosing between over 30,000 people so you can get the right one just for you. Over 6 million people globally are using it. And you know, have some breakthroughs, go on that walk after your BetterHelp sesh, you know, whatever it might be. Get a nice little lunch all for yourself, maybe a non-alcoholic kombucha, and just think and be like, damn, I really am him. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have somebody with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp. Help.com/howlong. That is better. H-E-L-P.com/howlong.

Every time I go to the doctor, I walk out of that shit feeling dumb. I got no real info. This guy in a white coat just say, you're fine, you know, drink more water.

He knows how to charge my copay.

Exactly.

That's about it.

As if I could drink more water, doctor. I, I don't get data. I don't get a game plan. I just get a pat on the ass and get out there and make it better. But Superpower is doing something different. Superpower sends a licensed professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab if you're a little freak. It's a simple blood draw, one simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers, which is way more than what you usually get, and it unlocks a real understanding of your body. Uh, their app includes detailed information on your heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin, mineral levels, and even environmental toxins. Ooh. So from disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simple optimizing for your gym game, let's go. Superpower is more comprehensive and advanced system out there.

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Right now I am running a print job on 2 machines as I sit here. Gotta get 600 prints out before the end of the day, which I will not do, but I'll do my best to hit that. I have 6 interviews today, this being one of them. I have social posts to do. I have, uh, artwork deadlines that I need to meet, and I have 2 newsletters to write for tomorrow.

2.

Uh, and that is before I check email. So that's where we're at.

Okay, all right, all right. So, all right, so you just— all right, you just shit on us, and I understand you're busier than we are and we deserve that. But the question is—

no, I know I'm not— I'm not shitting. I'm simply just— I'm simply just saying, you know, I'm stating.

I'm not shitting.

I like Jacob's venting.

I prefer to, um— I'm curious as to what other people's days look like and what is an acceptable sort of amount of activity for them.

I would say that your rundown of your activities today seems like it's an overload on your palate. Even for somebody who doesn't use drugs and alcohol, I would say that's too much stuff for one day. And maybe for the album cycle press run part of your life, we get an assistant, maybe use AI, something to think about.

You have some help, I'm sure, right? No. All right, so you're in this alone. This is okay.

So at the label here, I have two wonderful employees that are here full-time. Yeah, uh, that are running the warehouse. I'm the third.

Okay, okay. So you, so you have 6 interviews today. Obviously it's not always this busy, you're not always, you know, it's not always the week where you're releasing an album, but do you like the fact that we're— it's 2026 and you're doing all of your interviews over Zoom and we get to hang out and have fun and then they clip it and put on Instagram versus like we're gonna talk and then I'm gonna Xerox it and then it's gonna come out in 4 months and that's about it kind of thing?

No, I don't, I don't think about it that way. You know, communication ages, you know, if I was like a, a Luddite, I would probably have like a preferred way of, you know, sort of communicating with people. But, you know, it's just communication. It is what it is.

Well, I guess more so as we shift away from let's talk to the artist about the art and the process and the this, and nowadays because of social media and everything is on video and blah, blah, blah, for the clipability, we want to— we, we only really want to know about your personality and like if we could find a soundbite of 45 seconds where you're telling an epic story and that's about it versus sort of, you know, the older style interviews about what is this song about?

I don't see any difference between the things that you just mentioned. They're all just sort of—

Okay, sure. They all go into the same slop bucket for you.

Well, it's not a slop bucket for me. It's just—

It's a yummy bucket.

No, you guys ask me questions and I answer them.

I know, I know.

Pretty simple. So like, you know, I don't, I, you know, I don't want to waste your time or my time. I just want to communicate clearly. That's my, that's my only sort of, it's my only dog in the fight.

Okay.

No, I mean, I think it has changed considerably, but I think you're probably right that like it's—

yeah, I mean, the questions that you're sort of asking don't really apply to an artist as much as they apply to other journalists. So this is something that you guys should probably like have like a conversation with like almost like a media roundtable with people that are in your world. Just like musicians talking to musicians is interesting, the way that you guys are, or who, you know, whoever, however they define themselves, are navigating those waters, trying to figure out what works best for their form of journalism. So it's just like a different thing.

But what's your, what's your intake level, I guess, then on the other side of things, as far as like digesting whatever media you choose to digest as a consumer?

Um, just to ask, just like, like what podcasts I listen to or something?

Yeah, no, I mean, I mean more like just as a, in a general sense, navigating the world, like, you know, where are you getting your news? Where are you getting your memes? Where are you getting, you know, whatever the things that, that you're entertaining, your media intake at large?

Sure. Well, I, I don't, I, I, I don't waste my time with things that are just decoration. There's always simply too much to do for me to do. Like, like you mentioned memes, like I've never participated in a meme.

I have, you know.

Okay.

I, you know what, man, that is, that's brave and I am jealous as well.

Well, I mean, I, no, number one, I feel that people's efforts should be valued even if, even if I don't agree with them. Yeah. You know, on their takes. And so like oftentimes I feel like that things like that are usually created to sort of affect people in a negative way that are just taking something out of context like that oftentimes. And I don't see any use for that in, in my life, you know, like as a person.

Sure. Okay. Do you— I think, I think people might use a, use a little throwaway jokey funny meme, you know, as a way to let a little, little steam out, let a little air out of the balloon of the, the day-to-day. Monotony that we're all suffering from, but you might get that out in other ways, is what you're saying.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying exactly what I said. I'm saying that as a—

okay, well then can I ask you how you get it out?

Well, let me just finish my thought. As a human being, I feel that things like that oftentimes just do a disservice, you know. They just create more noise, you know, and I'm not really here to do that. You know, I spend, you know, my time and effort, you know, trying to promote art and music in a way that I feel is like ethically and sort of morally in line with myself as a punk rock person. And, you know, like, that doesn't leave room for a lot of bullshit, you know. Like, as much as I Yeah, I make jokes. Everyone makes jokes, has senses of humor. We all do lots of, lots of things to entertain ourselves, but I don't do it. I don't sacrifice another individual to do that. I think that's like one of the biggest problems with the internet and biggest problems with the way people communicate with each other now, where they're just because something isn't your ultimate favorite anything, it still deserves to exist. It doesn't need to be pain, doesn't need to be anything, you know, um, because I respect the work that, you know, people are putting into their efforts that they're putting out there.

I'm trying to get— I'm trying to get better myself. When you realize that sort of, you know, not everything is for you, but it still took a lot of effort for someone, and you can leave it at that. Well, I think it's really important to know that like nothing's made for I mean, that's real talk. I mean, that's real talk. You're, 'cause you're basically saying they're making it for them. And if you happen to enjoy it, that's, that's good, but that's not the point.

Absolutely. And so like a lot, especially when it comes to like art and music, sort of criticism and journalism, most of it that I see becomes so much about the eye and not about the artist.

Definitely. Definitely.

And I, I don't care about the reviewer. I care about the art. I know. I don't. As much as I'm a fan of writers and, you know, artists and musicians, the creative space and the opinion space when it comes to music journalism, especially now in the modern age, as you said, like things are, are memefied, things are created to be, for lack of better terminology, clickbaity, as you said before, I think that was—

Yeah.

Clippable.

Clippable. There you go.

Same difference.

Same difference, right? Well, the motivation is totally different. You know, like the motivation is to generate ad revenue through these clicks. And it's not to discover the artist or hear about what it took to make the art and hear the journey of that person, whoever that person be, myself or countless others. Because that's what people want to engage with. They don't want to necessarily engage with the opinions of people who are just sitting there, you know, chattering. They, you could do that without it being behind a paywall or being advertised to.

Well, I, I think as, as the, the modern age of interview and, and clickbait and all that stuff is going on, I see two divides where there is maybe a show like ours that's a little more chat-based and personality-based and can go off on odd tangents. And we don't necessarily always talk about the art and the process, et cetera. And then there's the film nerd podcast I'm going to interview and we're going to get really granular and talk about it. Or the music nerd podcast. I want to know about what type of cable you're connecting your pedals with and how far the mic is from the amp. And it doesn't need to be this engineer in this place.

I totally hear what you're saying. I'm not trying to be wholly disagreeable, but like—

I want you to be.

None of that sounds like when you— even when it's called someone's called a nerd in that. Why is, why is like interest and fanaticism?

I mean, I don't think that's, I don't think, I think that's a pretty general term that people use. I don't think it's necessarily negative.

I think in 2026, nerd doesn't hold really derogatory terminology the way it used to when we were, you know, the jocks versus the nerds kind of thing. I think nerd is something that people would call themselves with pride, potentially sometimes. But I see what you're saying. Sometimes, not always.

But like, but like, isn't— aren't there many other words that could be described? Uh, a enthusiast, connoisseur, fan, connoisseur.

Connoisseur, I would say, is top of the heap for me as far as that goes.

Junkie. I'm a Java junkie. You like coffee, right?

Yeah.

You say that to somebody who struggles with opiates and you might have a different take.

Come on, Bannon.

Come on.

I'm just— no, you're right. I am right. Like, I am right.

And like, I mean, to be fair, as a person who is addicted to opiates, I don't take offense to Java Junkie, but I know that someone could. Someone could.

Yeah, I know. Like, we're flippant with a lot of things until they matter to somebody that we care about.

That is true. That is true.

I mean, that's definitely true. That's definitely true. Of course, once something hits home, it changes things.

I know. And like, I'm a punk rock person. Like, you know, I care about the world. I care about people around me. Like, I don't want to put out a bunch of nonsense in the world and energy in the world that's going to affect people in a in a way that, like, because there's people, you know, you realize, like, there's people that are creative folks that most creative folks are quite fragile. And it's not because they're weak in any way. If anything, they're some of the bravest people in the world that are putting their thoughts and their feelings out there in the world. So when people are kind of, like, flippant or, like, sort of dismissive about, like, what that takes to be that person and to do that, do those things, and the effort that it takes, it sort of sucks, especially in the punk rock world, you know? And I know that I come from a punk rock world that's generationally different than a lot of the sort of casual listeners of music these days, but like, shit matters, you know? And I, you know, I want to try to be— I'm never going to be perfect, but—

Okay, well, what do you think about people who may be at a disadvantage, whatever that may be, And they also have a dark sense of humor and that's how they deal with whatever they have going on. And they might welcome that form of dark humor as something cathartic to them.

Well, as long as humor is wonderful, as long as it's not at the expense of other people and a lot of shit is.

Well, I was about to ask, I was trying to think of an example of something that I've, I guess sometimes standup is more observational, let's say. But I think that you're probably right. I would say most humor is at the expense of someone else, whether it's well-intentioned or not.

It's like, that's the point. And it's— and the— if you are sensitive to it, then you're just sensitive and you shouldn't be that sensitive. It's like, well, okay, that's 100%. But like, that, that works for like, you know, like a person chilling out in a comedy club, you know, who makes a decision to sort of be there.

Sure. Yeah, they paid to be there.

Yeah, sure. Like, that's different than passively, uh, ingesting Right, but we passively ingest nearly all media now. So what does that tell you about communication and the weight of what we're saying?

I mean, I think I'm desensitized to almost everything from the amount of media that I take in, whether passively or, you know, on purpose, is the, is the reality.

You're probably not desensitized because it's just not happening to you.

In what sense is it not happening to me?

I mean, the voyeuristic aspect of of media and the way we interact with devices to take in media now. I feel that if those things weren't affecting, like, it would be, like, I know, like, we just, like, made that, like, Chunky joke, you know, and everybody can make jokes, say whatever, but, like, you know, that's someone dying on the street.

Of course, I understand that, but I think there's also a thing where if you've gone through something, you've earned the right to joke about it however you want. And I agree with that. That's how I feel about it. And I think that, like, sure, some people may not like it, but I don't give a shit what they think because I actually dealt with it.

Yeah. But then if you have the— I'm just saying, if you have a person on the other side of that that's in the throes of some of the most pain moments of their lives and you say something flippant and say, hey, I've gone through it, what you're feeling doesn't matter because my feelings matter more. What I'm saying is you're doing it from a place of your own personal observation. You're not doing it from a place of empathy for others. And I think that's where things can get kind of hairy. You can get yourself into some pickles.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just, we're gonna learn today, Chris. I feel it happening.

I don't think we're living in it. I, I think that, that empathy is sort of, obviously it's a great quality to possess, but I think it's not rewarded. And I think it's also been deeply deprioritized to the point where it can be negative, I think. But I think you could get stepped on and maybe your life doesn't go the direction you want if you're thinking about others too much.

Yeah. I mean, like, none of us are out there serving, you know, serving everybody all the time because we simply can't. But anyway, this is probably not the stuff that you want to sit and talk about, so I'll leave you be. But these sort of subjects are like just very real. And I feel that like oftentimes we just kind of like joke and be zany and like, you know, there's, there's real shit going on in the world and like, you know, like Yeah, we look for escapes from it and stuff. I get it. But like, I don't know, maybe we do that too much. Maybe if we look at our hours on our phone and it's—

Oh, you're definitely right about that. Yeah, you're definitely right about that. We're definitely—

I think I'm right. I think I'm right about all of it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I think I'll take this. I'll take that.

What do you find disagreeable about?

I just think there's a certain level of, of the reality of living where it's every man for himself, no matter how much you want to deny it or not. We come in here alone, we die alone.

Oh, no, I don't. I don't. I don't deny that. I've actually said that on stage many times and I agree with it, but it's up to you what you do with that time. Just because you, you're born in this world and, and it alone and you die alone, it doesn't mean that you can't affect people in the world in a positive way on the way out.

Sure. But I think there's more than one way to affect people positively is, is what I'm, is kind of what I'm—

for sure. I totally agree with it. Absolutely.

You know, and I think that that just depends on the, obviously that depends on the relationship and who the person is, et cetera, et cetera. But I mean, I think like you said, that's to an extent— there's— you can't make everybody happy. You can only do what you want to do or can do.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, I'm not changing the world. I'm a punk rock person with limited, limited skill set. This is what I— but I want to do my best with what I have.

I, I think you're changing the world. I think you're changing—

you're changing the world more than we are. I mean, I think that there's a, there's a level of, um— I mean, you've been doing this for a very long time, and if obviously also, you know, you have a— you guys have a very serious following. You always have. And I think it inspires a lot in people but I think that— do you think that people are— do you think people are digesting the music in the same way? Do you think it's still as meaningful for people with all these distractions? Do you think people can like lock in the way they used to be able to?

Can't control that. I don't think about it.

I mean, I, I— of course, but I mean, I think that like there was a time where you would sit in your room and digest a record in a very different way. You'd pull out the liner notes, you'd read everything. It was different. Now it feels passive in some ways. but it's not going to change your output is basically what you're saying.

There's lots of different ways to take in music, right? Um, there always has been. Um, just because we live in a time that over 50% of music is taken in through this sort of DSP model, none of us are losing listeners or anything like that because of that. If anything, we're gaining them. But we're gaining a different kind of listening experience that's completely dictated by the device itself and these systems that are in place to have our music experienced by others. Physical media previously used to at least give you some sort of interaction that forced you to hold the tangible item and to sort of be engaged. But even then, there were plenty of people who are just fans of general music that just don't really give themselves to something in a fanatical way, especially outside of the sort of punk rock and sort of hardcore underground independent music sort of scene.

Definitely.

This is like why singles were created, you know, and maxi singles. Like, for real, like, this is like how people used to listen to music, right? They might not picture, they might get the they might get the Metallica One cassette single with Bread Fan on the other side. But they're probably not going to spend the $13 on Injustice for All, but they would just take in that aspect. So there's people that were casual listeners then to music, and they exist now. I think what we have happening here is like a dismantling, a systematic dismantling of the art form itself. Over time of the long-form album. That's been something that's been occurring for— since digital essentially sort of took center stage. Can't change that. It is what it is. So like, I just don't really think about that. I think the people that do connect with our band— well, number one, our band is not an easy one to get into. Uh, we, we're very aware that we're a We're an abrasive band that's absolutely not for anybody or everybody. And we're not— we're trying— we're not— we're not trying not to be.

The maxi— the maxi single is not going to be your way, your entry point.

It's just not even who we are as people. It's not— it's not what we do. Um, so like, if somebody learns our language, great, let's— let's all speak the same language. But, you know, for some people, it just might be a singular song that connects with them. It might be, for others it might be nothing. I try not to think about the way people interact with the art and music we're putting out there any place past me just being, you know, a partial creator of it. Because you just, you don't have, you don't have control. So any sort of ideas that you may have to guide a narrative as an artist. All of that goes away as soon as you let a song out into the world. And so I know for like my own mental health as a person, I don't think I would do well or feel good about being in a place that was sort of like hinged on that. So I just disconnect from it and I just sort of like, I just kind of pull away from it. And I think that a lot of, you know, sort of punk-leaning people, will still take the time to listen to artists in a more thorough way than just sort of in snippets. And again, like, teach your own. Like, there's probably plenty of things I listen to in snippets. I'm not saying that like I'm the king of long-form anything. I'm just simply saying that this version of music came around and was developed at a point in time where that, all that really mattered and was really part of the sort of like fabric and DNA of stuff. And so we still very much make long-form albums as opposed to just songs. You know, that's, that happens to be important to us in terms of how we present stuff and, and how we sort of shape things. But, you know, there's 60,000 ways of doing this and there's no, there's no right, right or wrong way. I just know for us and the way we do things, it's what, you know, that's how we're most comfortable.

You, you mentioned the, the rise of the DSPs and the digital music listening platforms was sort of the, the systematic destruction of the long-form album and more into the single and snippets. Do you think that was a conscious decision that they were trying to do, or that's just the way the, the cards shuffled out?

The way the cards shuffled out is that the artists especially small ones, which I would qualify our band as a small band as well. You know, we're all just working class musicians. I imagine that your take home is probably about the same as mine, maybe a little more. With that said, we're very sensitive to the economics of creation of things. Before there was DSPs, it was the rise of shared files, right? Everyone's downloaded something at some point, right? Check something out, do something, get into something, get excited about something. But the economic backbone of independent music at that time was basically ripped out because at that time it took fanaticism, did two things. It brought people to just download things in WAVs. I mean, I had a roommate that I remember had terabytes of stuff. He would just always constantly— and it would create these, it would create these, uh, like little societies of people, these little communities that were doing that, you know. And they were all sort of like saying like, oh, check out, here's my— you can log into my, my server, here's all my stuff, yada yada yada. They were all sort of doing this, acting as sort of like de facto distributors of things.

They're acting like the— they could tell the difference between a FLAC file and a WAV file. All that stuff was going down, huh, Jacob?

Well, well, actually, you know what they were doing? A lot of them thought they were brilliant because they were saving space, turning things into AAC files and destroying their— basically destroying all of their, their stuff. Um, y'all fucked up, you know? But like, the thing is, this album is only 4 megabytes. But here, but here's, but here's, here's real talk about all that stuff. Like, I, I had a, I had a friend who— or an acquaintance, I would say good, good person overall that I, that I knew. Haven't talked to him in a long time, but he had a blog where he was basically uploading things and talking about them and celebrating these things. And he put up a record, and I knew the band, and he's like, hey, this band's awesome, everyone should check out this band. That immediately sounds like a noble, great thing because you are, you're promoting the band, signal boosting Except that I know that that singer of that band at that particular point in time on that exact day was living in his car in Western Mass.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, Stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's, uh, it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions.

A lot of questions. But how often, because we do this podcast 3 times a week and That's a sweet spot. How many times do they do?

3 times a week. And I, I have a feeling, just based on the platform and these talking points, that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess.

The Guardian is not some billionaire-owned platform. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother.

Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in, in what, uh, journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at, uh, stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcast. You can watch on YouTube. It's 3 times a week. And, and who couldn't use more news, you know, especially especially when it's, when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it, give it a listen, give it a listen.

Your summer starts now with Memorial Day deals at The Home Depot. It's time to fire up summer cookouts with the Nexgrill 4-burner gas grill on special buy for only $199. And entertain all season with the Hampton Bay West Grove 7-piece outdoor dining set for only $400. $199. This Memorial Day, get low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. While supplies last. Price invalid May 14th through May 27th. US only. Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com/pricematch for details. Well, it was a one example that just like came right in front of me that day. And I was like, wow, okay, well, you may not think you're doing anything negative by sharing this music and bringing you— and you may be bringing eyes to it. But you are actually, by the structure of what you're doing, you're not paying this artist for their thing. And now I know for a fact that that artist has left music entirely at this point. And they made wonderful music and made records that I felt were important or special. But that was just one example of tens of thousands of those examples that exist everywhere. And I'm not saying that wouldn't have happened otherwise. It could have.

It's just a very clear example.

It's a very clear example. Would it, would it have changed that guy's life that day if that record was purchased by one of those people? Probably not, not that day, but it probably would have changed their, their trajectory and their relationship with the business aspect of independent music because it basically ripped the soul out of the person when they were creating something to be to be heard, to be shared, to be experienced by other people, but it wasn't worthy enough to pay for.

Do you think the— do you think the person in question that was making the blog, do you think they weren't necessarily— do you think they were just not thinking that way about the eventual outcome and what it's actually doing?

No, I wouldn't expect them to. Sure, not right away.

It was a different time back then. There was no— nobody knew the consequences in the same way.

Yeah, the consequences now are highly publicized.

So you're saying thankfully nowadays with our DSPs, you can just post the Spotify link instead of the direct MP3 download and we're all, everybody's good.

Yeah. Everybody's happy.

I mean, that was a joke, Jacob.

Yeah. But on it, but that, well, that's the, I was actually saying the opposite.

So yes, in lies the humor, but with, but with Bandcamp, sorry to interrupt with Bandcamp. There's, it's cool that there are digital ways that we can try to give, you know, music and Bandcamp is no different than any of the other DSPs.

Don't let anybody fool you.

Break it on down, Jacob.

Well, I don't need to, it's all, it's all out there. They're just all, they're all aggregators of of content that they don't own, right? That's created by creators.

Yeah.

I mean, tough to argue, tough to argue with that. I mean, that is true.

I mean, so, so you, so you forego your, your percentage once a month that you started during COVID because it was a good PR move, but in reality, you're making millions upon millions, not on necessarily major label artists that are actually generating revenue that I would say could potentially have some sort of spillage. You know, it's, it's huge money. But a regular, you know, hardcore punk rock band that spent a few thousand dollars on their record and they're getting like, you know, a slow trickle of things, you're taking the, you're taking the same percentage. You're just, you're just presenting it in a, in a way where the artists are feeling that it's less predatory, but it's the same.

Yeah, there's band in the name, but you're not fooling me.

Yeah, but I can hand press my zines and my hoodies and my vinyl and put it up on there for everyone to see. There's a place for a transaction. Obviously they will take a cut, but I'm not arguing with you. I see your side as well, but the other option is we just build our website ourselves and hope that the merch table does well in Denver.

Well, that's what we used to do.

Oh yeah, of course. Of course.

Yeah.

Converge.blogspot.com, buy the hoodie. Well, a lot—

a really big thing that happens when, when social networks were developed was we were all told that the, the internet was basically too hard for anybody to do anything themselves.

Like, you guys don't even try this. This is above your pay grade.

Well, right. So didn't, didn't it— like a lot of bands basically would, would forgo even having a site because it was easier to update things and do things on these social networks. Which to a degree works, but then you create this environment. And this, this was before a lot of the paywalls were put in, put in place. And that was all definitely, and that was all done by design. That was all to create an environment, which in turn made people simply have to go there. People would much rather go to a Facebook and Instagram to look for a band's handle than just to search their name in a generic search engine and find that they have a site that has all of the information that you want or need. Right? It was just, it's easier in those little snippets. Um, and that's the way communication has gone. That, that war has been sort of, has, has happened before anybody even knew it was happening. And the autonomy of an independent artist was taken at that time because you either, you can do your own thing, which many of us still do. We all have sites and we do things and, you know, do our best to have a presence on all the platforms that we can. But now they're like, it's all throttled. You know, we can't reach a community that came to us organically, um, without hitting a paywall. So we need to pay to have visibility, um, through any sort of AdSense situation or pay-to-play in any sort of, um, you know, advertising situation.

Let's boost that post.

Boost that post. And like, and so what is that really? That's literally, it's literally taking your your ability away. It's fucked up.

No, it is. No, it is.

It's saying, give me $20 and I'll loosen these handcuffs a little bit. Give me $100, I'll take them off.

And the best part about it is we'll just show you a bunch of, you know, aggregated numbers that don't mean anything. Say, look at how many people saw your thing. You had this many impressions. It doesn't turn into real-time anything because the guts have been ripped out of the basic sort of, you know, like pay for a record, pay for a piece of merchandise, and that be that.

We are an anti-data podcast. Just to be clear, Jacob, we— I believe in the things that you can't quantify.

Well, I, I'm not— I'm very much not anti-data, but I, you know, but I think that I— but I do think that these things, these are like conversations that like a lot of us were having as individuals and as musicians, like when, when this was all starting to happen. I remember being like at a Crudo show and then on stage talking about like the corporatization of emails in like the mid-'90s and be like, you know, there's only like 3 companies that you can get right now that I'm not in bed with, you know, Company A, B, or C. This is what you got to do if you want to do that and have a clear, a clear sort of connection without any sort of corporate or sort of big business influence with your information. And now it's, now it's just coming down to basic communication. That's a real problem.

Now the only people are saying that, what you were saying on stage at a Crudo Show '95, is Joe Rogan saying, hey, don't trust Google, I use DuckDuckGo when I'm doing my searches so they don't get the malware, you know.

Well, isn't that a, isn't that great, um, a great example, right? So like, so now, so now it's— it created these— it created this situation where we have all these people that like, like Joe would— will sell you like that, or like some sort of like AI search thing or whatever. They're all just selling something.

Oh, that's 100% what's going on for sure. It's all selling something no matter where you turn.

It's always selling something. I would just like it to just be like— I wouldn't— wouldn't it be great like I don't, I don't know Joe. I, I respect, I respect that world.

I thought you and Joe might have had some crossover just because of the—

What world exactly is that? The world of Muay Thai or the world of podcasting?

Well, yeah, I think you were asking each other questions. What was, what was that?

I was saying I thought you might have had some crossover with Joe just because of the Muay Thai interests, and he might like aggressive music. Who knows?

Doubtful. But you know, like eventually over time money dictates everything with stuff like that. So like, as good as like, you know, somebody like that who has all of the, he has the probably the largest platform in the world currently to be able to sort of like mainline news to people. Wouldn't it be amazing if somebody like that said, hey, you know what, for like fucking like one month I'm going ad free. Go ad-free and just not be a shill, you know, and, and be an aggregator of the things that you're interested in and not be worried about the demonetization on platforms like Google or, you know, what have you. And just be like, I don't, I don't need an extra $40 million right now. Or take all that, or, or take that revenue and do something with it. Do something with it.

Yeah. Well, do you think that he, he's very into talking about how he only advertised things that he cares about and believes in? Are you a shill if the Republican coffee or the knife hunting thing or the this and that, if he's only advertising things that he currently loves and genuinely believes in?

Well, he's only advertising things that come across his desk and can pay the ad revenue to be there. So that's not—

You can like it, but they're also paying you. So it's a slippery slope.

Right. It's not a clear Yeah, it's not as clear as the presentation makes it seem. Do you know what I mean? It's not like— there are certain— we've all heard podcasters say, like, I, I use this product as well, but it's like, I guarantee you, you probably wouldn't be using Manscaped if you, um, like, or if they weren't paying you. Yeah, on a subscription level basis. And I'm not saying that it's negative for these companies to, to do this, but like, I don't necessarily want my You know, like, I don't know, like, I don't want my news to come from Manscaped.

I think that's something we can all agree on. I mean, I think that we, you know, to do this podcast, you know, we obviously do advertisement as well because we don't have a paywall and that's the way that we're able to pay ourselves. And I find that trade-off to be like ethically fine for me personally. Like, I am sure you get to— you get to have this for free if you want it and these people are paying for it so you don't have to. And I think that that is— it's changed a little bit. That used to be how podcasting worked, and now it's basically—

what if, what if music worked that way? What if we all decided, say, you know what, awesome, do that. But you know what we're going to start doing? And I know bands have done this before as sort of like a statement piece, but they've never stuck to it. Just start putting ads in records. We'll just, in the middle of the song, just stop the song and we control that ad revenue. and we'll just, in the middle of the song, we will shout out whatever product that you want.

I love this idea. This is a great, this is a great idea.

But, but isn't it interesting though? Like, like I, that's a, wouldn't that be such a weird way to experience music and, and art? You know, when stuff would just be sort of disrupted like that?

Totally.

That would be, I mean, that would maybe something to consider for the next album when you go in, it's all cut. We're gonna do the gang vocals.

Oh no, we've made this joke thousands of times.

Like, you know, we, we, we We've experimented with this.

Well, one of the jokes that we make too is like, you know, so, you know, if everybody else thinks that they know our bands— and I was just talking to like a variety of bands about the subjects over time— and they think that we should mix our records this particular way or like present them in a particular way, it's like, you know what, let's just— we're just going to give everybody everything for free and you mix your own record, you know, create your own.

Whatever. Send me the— send me this, send me the stems, I'm gonna do my own version, right?

And so like that, the point basically becomes like, you know, like, what are we doing here? Like, are we appreciating the artist or are we looking at everything as just sort of like content for ourselves and our own sort of creation? Like, what are we doing here?

We're making it about me instead of you. Where you giving me a song, most people's minds nowadays are like, how can I remix this and put my name on it? How can I turn this into something about me versus this is great art, I love it.

Yeah.

And everyone, or, or just like what we're doing now, instead of actually creating art, what if we just comment on it in a, in a, in a zany way 3 times a week?

Yeah.

You know, like a couple Squarespace ad reads and then right off into the sunset.

But I don't think anybody should be, um, reduced in that way. Right. Any people should like, Efforts should not be reduced to anything but what they're supposed to be, free of those influences. And like, yeah, like I'm not saying like I have— I don't have the right answer to any of these things. I just think that these are important things that we need to sort of discuss as content creators, right? In the modern times.

I could tell it pained you to say the words content creators like that in earnest.

It pains me too. It pains me too. Trust me. But I mean, I feel like you guys have always put out records in a pretty traditional sense, you know what I mean? As far as like like, here's the vinyl, here's the CD, and now here's this, you know, we're on streaming services. I feel like you, you know, in some ways you approach it traditionally, but I, I think you maybe approach it— I don't know, I just feel like there's only so much you can do if you want people to hear it, which I think is the eventual goal for sure.

Like, that's, that's the problem, right? Because like, you sort of have to play part of the game to at least like be able to have any sort of visibility, you know? Like, we as a, as a band, we've discussed just saying like, hey, like, should we have, you know, our music on streaming service A, B, or C? You know, that we don't feel ethically connected to, that we won't even give our own money to. But we have to have our catalog in these places. Why? Because that's where the audience happens to take in music. So like, if I want to pull off our catalog from, you know, from whatever, any of them, like, sometimes we also don't own the catalogs. We can't just do that. You can't, you know, like, that's like a thing too. Like, you know, I can—

the business of it all.

Well, it's, it's really difficult, you know. It's like, or I think you can, you can see that a lot of artists' hands are tied. It's like, I, I saw an artist talking about this, um, today, um, the woman from Best Coast.

Yeah, Bethany, about the Wasserman situation.

Yeah. And I, and I saw that and I was like, yeah, this is like really tragic But it also really tells you so much about where the control is and where the change needs to happen when it comes to, you know, music business. It's like her hands are tied.

Yeah, totally. Like, I need to play shows and this is an issue.

But also the beauty of that, because of her sort of falling on the sword and removing herself from her main revenue stream, live shows, a week later, Chappelle Roan just today or yesterday announced that she's also leaving the same agency. And that's a death hit.

For some, for sure, but not for the— There will be people that will come into— There'll be other— Are these agents that they were leaving? Is that what the—

Yeah, Wasserman's a booking agent among other things, but yeah.

Yeah, they're a booking agent. The guy was in the Epstein files doing some bad stuff and people are starting to leave the agency and Chappelle Roan being the newest and biggest one to do so.

Yeah, I mean, and there's, there's power there, you know. That's, that's something that—

real change.

Yeah, that's direct action, you know. I'm just saying like, hey, look, this is— you wouldn't have had— if that, if that stuff was like, for lack of better terminology, public sort of, uh— sorry, I have a tractor going by my window.

Um, I'll clean it up in post, don't worry.

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

I got a plug-in for that.

Where, where is this office? I didn't know there were tractors out there. I didn't know we were rural.

Uh, we're, we're not rural. We're We're in Beverly, Massachusetts, so I'm in a warehouse. Okay.

Okay. Okay.

And it's just a big cinder block warehouse.

Do you need this much space? So it has to be like this. Could you— could you put this in a more normal office?

We were in a smaller space for about 14 years. It was about— I can see it from here. It's like a block away. And that was— that had its drawbacks, too, you know, because, again, like, we're, you know, we're small businesses. We can't afford to have like, like huge sick places. So, you know, we end up kind of getting stuff that like, I know we're like, we're literally on the train tracks, you know, when people talk about like the wrong side of the tracks, it's like, I mean, my, my neighbors at the tow yard, you know, those are my friends here. You know, those guys.

Well, at least look, you're, you're acclimating, you know, you're friends with the locals.

Oh, I love it. It's no, it's, but I don't know anything different because it's like what we've always kind of done.

Sure, sure.

You know, so like, I, I definitely have a tolerance that's a little higher than most for, for bullshit.

I would say based on what you— I would say based on what you just said, your tolerance is quite high, because I, I imagine that— do you guys tour in a bus?

Uh, it depends on the tour.

Um, sure.

The short answer is no. There's definitely tours we have. Um, it's more common in Europe, um, because— yeah, yeah, if we can put everybody on one bus, that's what we try to do. So for example, like now we're trying to get things together for later in the year, and that's been a conversation. Can we get, you know, 3 to 4 bands on one bus, which is very difficult from a tour managing perspective for people.

3 to 4, there's some members at that point we gotta—

oh yeah, no, no, we try to put the whole tour on them on the singular bus. That way it's, you know, one—

yeah, of course.

Yeah, everything is just easier.

Sure.

And it's cheaper for everybody too because we're all sort of working together on, on a thing. We do, uh, bandwagons now has been a common thing.

Um, meaning, meaning bandwagon, meaning like a Sprinter, or do you mean something different?

Um, yeah, so, so like there's a few companies out there, bandwagons, like one of them where they're—

oh, it's a— oh, I see, it's a company. Okay, okay.

Yeah, yeah. So like they basically build out, you know, like a 6 to 8 bunk sleeping van, you know, it's like the band camp of transportation.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, sort of. But it does, um, it does make things, um, definitely more comfortable than previous, you know.

Like, I feel like you've done— you've probably done some of the most uncomfortable touring. Oh sure. Any musician we've had on this podcast in our 5 or 6 years. So I, I'm impressed that there's—

Justin Pearson's probably been in some shittier vans than you have.

Yeah, actually, yeah, Justin Pearson.

But only him.

Justin still has a van, I think.

I'm sure.

Yeah, I, I bought it— I, I bought an old Sprinter right before COVID and I actually sold it month when, like, in that time frame when it was up, uh, because I have other bands that aren't Converge that, you know, we, we definitely cannot pay for a bus or a bandwagon or anything like that.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then we were on our first tour with that, our first, you know, few shows or whatever, and, um, it basically blew its engine like outside of, uh, Baltimore.

Oh, beautiful.

Yeah, it was really, it was really great. And I had to Um, yeah, then after the tour, I had to rent a minivan for the rest of that tour, which put that, that band completely in the red for years.

Because I was gonna, I was gonna say, that, that feels like a lost leader as far as touring goes.

The Honda Odyssey puts you in the red for years. That's tough.

Oh yeah, no, I mean, the bands are making $500 a day, you know, so like, we're not, you know, split between 5 guys and, you know, gas money and merch.

Half of that's gas.

Yeah, so, so there's no, you know, like, you're already gonna be in the red anyway, and it just becomes much worse. But like, that's the, that's the reality of bands, you know, and that's the reality. Of course.

No, no, I mean, I, I, look, that's what I thought touring was, you know, until I was in my early 20s, you know. You don't realize it, it's still very—

I mean, here's the thing, like, you get conditioned to those from those experience, those experiences too. Like, you know, those first, like I was telling you, like that tour where I met, um, Dave Smalley and, and went to Epitaph and all that stuff, you know, we were in a a, a car, like an actual small Ford cargo van that we chopped up. My— I had a mini ramp that I built in my backyard probably 6 or 7 years before that.

Okay, so it's like worm-filled, rotted wood, not the best quality, not the best quality, all shit I pulled, I stole from construction sites.

Absolutely. 100%.

You're like, let's drive this thing cross-country.

You, you, you haven't lived until you've put a until you've tried to carry a, uh, 4-foot, a 4x8 piece of plywood and a BMX bike and roll it down the street when you're like, you know, 12. You know, that is—

yeah, mechanically that's not adding up, but I believe it.

It was fucking crazy. Um, but there's a will, there's a way. I just— and I just did it about 20 times to build the thing. Um, but anyway, like, the thing was a disaster area, and it finally blew up on us in in Vegas, and we ended up having to put a, uh, a U-Haul, like a full-size U-Haul truck, not a small one, like a full deal on it, on someone's credit card. It was a drummer's credit card of that band, and that was what we finished the tour in. And the rest of us, we just stayed in the back of the, of the U-Haul box truck for 4 more weeks. And so every time, so every time that breaks or, or accelerated, everything would slide. Yeah, because, because we had no—

there were no bungee cords holding the bass cab in place. The drum stand could hit you in the noggin on a hard left.

100%. And they— yeah, it was like, it was really brutal. Um, and so that, that, that tour broke some people that basically left punk rock after that because it was pretty intense.

I'm out. I'm gonna go work at Old Navy. This is bullshit.

Yeah, but even—

I mean, I'm sleeping in a U-Haul for a month. That's—

but even the best parts of that tour, like, you know, I, I enjoyed my, my, the experience, you know, but the— even the best case scenario we had, there was no money to eat. The bands were not making any money. Like, Converge played 2 or 3 shows on that tour, and then I stayed on for the rest of the tour to sell records. And I, we just took turns filling the gas tank on our own dime because there was no, there was no revenue being pulled, pulled in by people.

There wasn't pay, there wasn't petty cash in the front cap.

No, no. So every, basically it was like, your turn, you're up, you fill it. And like, you know, I, I brought, I ate canned peas and canned corn for a month. That's what I brought with me. Put in a cooler.

Damn, that reminds me, we had, we had Ray Capo on like a year or two ago, and he was talking about they would go on the road with the little rice cooker and just pull over on the side of the road and just whip up some beans.

Yeah, Kurt used to do that. I remember Kurt being outside of a gas station with a hot plate plugged into the back of a thing. I mean, like, this is— it all sounds like romanticized.

No, no, it's shitty. No, we know it's shitty.

Let me be clear. But here's the thing. It's like legit shitty. But it was like, it's very real. And it's like, these are the sacrifices that people made to play art and music and to do the thing, you know? And so like doing that sort of stuff over time, in my opinion, changes you. It doesn't matter what—

How could it not?

Yeah. So you end up, you end up in a weird spot where you're kind of like, we joke about it. We say that like, we're not civilians anymore. You know, because we don't, we don't necessarily rely on the same sort of creature comforts that would otherwise be, you know, normal and average to experience. Yeah. And it's changed me dramatically. Like, I know, like, you know, I talked to my wife about it sometimes. Like, she gives me a hard time about it because, like, there are things that I probably do that are, like, totally abnormal, but they're from, they're from learning being, being a kid from a divorced family and like, and basically living out of a backpack all my life, I, through touring, how would you break that? I'm always, I, I'm, I still do it. I still sleep in jeans, you know. I sleep in jeans and like, when we're on tour, I sleep in jeans and shoes. And because I will never be in a position where I'm in a, in an emergency, emergency situation where I'm not prepared.

Yeah, yeah.

To have to get exit a vehicle Yeah, because I've seen it, I've been there. It's like a thing. Um, everything's always put away, everything's in bags. It might sound like it's a, um, like a neurotic thing, but it's far from that actually.

It's, it's a very preparation.

You literally have to be prepared. And you know, like being— when I was a kid, you know, from like basically, you know, 4 years old until, you know, I left high school, every weekend was also that in my life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's how I lived. And so that's kind of like all I know.

She's like, "You can chill out now," and you're like, "I actually can't." No, I actually can't.

I try to all the time.

Yeah, like I would love to, sweetheart, but it's not going to happen.

Try to work things out or something and feel like you've moved into a home or just present in that way.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, I'm all messed up.

If you said, "I'm not a civilian," then what would you categorize yourself as then? Musician. Okay, wait, wait, is that fair enough? Is that, is that considered below the civilian line or, or above the civilian line?

See, that's the problem with hierarchy. It isn't— it's not— that's not how I define it. They're just different defined things. It's—

Jason, I knew you fucked up on that one. Jason, I knew you fucked up.

Walked as soon as I said it.

Well, it's, it's no better or worse, right? It's just like we're all just like— we're all just different.

It's different.

Different.

It's different.

Like, as much as it's, you know, it's it's, yeah, it's super interesting to have like notoriety from like playing music or creating art in some way. And like people know you from these things, but you have all the same problems everybody else does. And you have, you know, you're navigating the same, you know, sort of turbulent waters the whole fucking world is, is, is in right now. It's like, we're not that much different. So like, yeah, like I guess what I mean by like, not like a civilian really is like, we tolerate things which which most people don't tolerate because you just can't.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Perhaps to a fault. No, I, I see what you're saying. Absolutely. And I like the irony of, of my wife always saying, hey, can you put this stuff away? And your wife is saying, hey, can you pull some stuff out and put it out?

No, for real.

Yeah, just leave. It's fine. You can just leave it there.

We live here.

Oh yeah.

I'll be like, no, like, yeah, I, I literally can't.

Like, I— it's—

yeah, sure, it's fucking— it's like, it's not— is it a dis— it's— I don't see it as a dysfunction, but, you know, I don't think it's—

I don't think it's a dysfunction.

I think it's better than hoarding.

I think it's a product of your environment, and that's just what, you know, there's no reason to—

reminds me of when you go camping and they say, you know, you got to put all the trash into the thing or the bears are going to come. You know, all it takes is one Snickers wrapper and the bears on the campsite. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of stuff psychologically, except the bears are trying to steal your camp and sell it for drugs.

Yeah, you're not gonna, you're not gonna break that.

Well, yeah, and like, you're a lifer. And the thing is, like, it's kind of like saying about like, yeah, like stealing your gear or something like that. Like, we've all slept in, in the vans, you know, because of those, those reasons multiple times.

It's a sitting duck.

It's— we've had a lot of—

yeah, you see that, you see the Massachusetts plates in a trailer, you know it's a hardcore band with gear back there, no question. And from 1999 to 2004, there was no chance that wasn't what it was.

Oh, absolutely. And well, And now, yeah, it gets crazy sometimes and you just kind of—

Well, you guys had nicer shit than Hope Conspiracy. If I'm going to rob somebody, it's going to be you.

I don't know. We never really had the nice stuff. I'm just joking.

Okay. Well, as we're landing the plane, Jacob, if you open up the little chat window on this Zoom, do you see a couple of t-shirts there?

All right. Let me see here.

My brother wanted to ask. He got a Converge shirt in, I think in '99 from the Showcase Theater. And he said he hasn't seen it anywhere else online or as, you know, is it a real or is it a bootleg or anything like that? So he wanted me to ask, maybe you can identify this.

All right.

Comment here on the horn.

So yeah, go straight to the source.

No, it's, no, it's just, it's a version of a shirt that we've made before.

But it's just, it's on this baseball tee, which makes it rare.

I mean, we've made, we've made everything, you know.

Um, yeah, you definitely, you definitely have.

That's kind of merch. Have you made everything?

Graphic has endured.

Yeah, I try to. I'm not like, like, I save stuff, but I don't save stuff. So like, I don't save my own stuff. Like, I'm probably, I've been working on this big elaborate Converge thing the last few months, like a book. Uh, no, this is a piece of art, and I, I haven't, and I haven't save really much of it as I built it. You know, I've got like, I've got printouts of things that I'm working on, but I don't have like, you know, all the pieces and I don't save all the shirts, but I do try to save the files when I can of things. Yeah, I do. I definitely have clients that come to me sometimes. Like, actually like Poison the Well a couple of years ago asked if I had the opposite of December. And I, I was looking around for it and I like, you ever zip discs? I have my— this is, this is those jobs.

Damn, let me check the zip discs you got.

All right, so you're saying you got the Poison the Well artwork on the zip disc?

Yeah, for sure.

There's a lot of 43-year-old guys listening to this right now salivating.

Yeah, the zip disc, the zip disc is for the heads only.

But I actually couldn't— I, I, I wasn't able in the time that they needed to, to be able to pull that. So I didn't even actually finish pulling that information for them. Sure. But it's there. Most—

like I have stuff like that back, back when unzipping took a lot of time.

Yeah, I'm pretty organized.

Jesus Christ. Um, all right, Jacob, thank you for joining us on How Long Gone.

The new record sounds great. Congratulations.

Thank you.

We appreciate you taking the time, man.

Well, you know, and I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys having a nice conversation because I like having conversations. So this is—

hey, so do we, man. Look, I mean, we've both been listening to Converge since we were in middle school, so this is a, this is a full circle moment.

Well, I started this band in middle school, so I know you're only, you're only a little bit older than us, but yeah, honestly, generationally, we're basically the same hardcore kid in terms of what our entry point is.

Yeah, no, that's, that's, yeah, you're kind of right.

You know, like that weird gray area people aren't familiar with. And so like, I, I hopefully if someone that's younger can listen to this and sort of understand that there's different mentalities that come with age with this stuff.

No, for sure. That's nothing has—

Your mentality is much different than ours, and I think that that, you know, that the A/B comparison will be interesting in the final edit.

Oh, it'll be fun.

We appreciate it for real.

Thank you guys. I appreciate your work. And yeah, you, as much as I bust your balls, you guys are doing good and you're doing good work in here.

You know, no, right back at you, Jake.

We deserve it. We'll talk to you soon.

Okay. Be good, guys. Thank you. Thanks, bud.

All right. Bye. We must go discover the taste of water, man! We have to ascend! No one is dying now! No one is dying now! We sail! Jump right in!